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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.05

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.05
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR IRVING:  It takes stereoscopic pairs, does it not? In other
        words, each photograph was a certain distance away from
        the next one in terms of seconds, so, when viewed through
        a stereoscopic viewer, you would get a stereoscopic effect

.          P-35

        so that you could see if these objects were in fact just
        smudges on the roof of some kind, or plant growths, or if
        they were what you would call chimneys?
   A.   I do not think that they were taken with the intention to
        be looked through a stereoscopic viewer.  It was simply
        that the camera was running with a certain speed and, as a
        result of that, you can look at them with a stereoscopic
        viewer, which is a slightly different issue.
   Q.   This was the system.  They did not take two photographs
        simultaneously.  They would take them at five second
        intervals to produce a stereoscopic effect?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think we are straying a rather
        long way down a possibly unprofitable side alley.
   MR IRVING:  In view of the fact that apparently, unless I
        wrong, this is his only other evidence apart from the
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We have not asked him that yet.  I have
        point. You are alert to the possibility that these may
        forgeries.  Dr Bryant apparently concluded they were
   MR IRVING:  I have one more question to ask about the
        on the roof as visible in the air photographs.  What
        you to say about the spacing of those smudges when you
        compare them with what I call the tar barrels on the
        in the other photograph?  They are differently spaced,
        they not?
   A.   I cannot judge that.  In the one photo we looking from

.          P-36

        more or less ground level at these boxes, and now we
        more or less straight from above and it is impossible
        come to any conclusion one way or another.
   Q.   I disagree with you.  Would it not be correct to say
        in fact there is a very uneven spacing in the four tar
        barrels visible from the ground, whereas the smudges
        the roof appear to be admittedly irregularly spaced
but in
        a totally different way.  Therefore, they have no
        connection whatsoever with the protruberances that are
        visible from ground level.
   A.   I have no comment on that.
   Q.   Can we hear what other evidence you have that this
        building here, the Leichenkeller No. 1, of crematorium
        No. (ii) was a homicidal gas chamber, apart from the
        eyewitnesses and apart from the smudges on the roof?
   A.   These are the two images which confirm the eyewitness
        report, and then there are a number of drawings made
by a
   Q.   Mr Olaire?
   A.   Mr Olaire, which are in tab No. 3.  There are three
        drawings I would like to refer to.  The first drawing
        No. 1 printed 3.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you just remind me? Olaire was an
        inmate.  Was he a sonderkommando?
   A.   He was a sonderkommando.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Drawing No. 3?

.          P-37

   A.   It is circled in my horrible handwriting No. 1.
   MR IRVING:  What tab are we under, please?
   A.   It is a plan of crematorium No. (iii) which is the
        image of crematorium No. (ii), so we have in some way
        start to switch the left and right halves of our brain
        understand this.  What he has drawn in the room No. 3,
        which is, according to him, the gas chamber, are in
        four little blocks, four little squares, which are
        from left to right, from left to right.  They are
        here, and of course they were not labelled at the
time, as
        the Zyklon-B introduction openings.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Who did the labelling?
   A.   In the final publication of Olaire's drawings I think
        were done by Klarsfelt or somebody who was working
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Did Olaire survive?
   A.   Olaire survived, yes.  He survived and he was very far
        from Poland when Tauber gave his testimony.  He was
        liberated in Germany and then he went back to Paris
        immediately.  So the chance of cross pollination, as
        Mr Irving calls it, is very little.  There is a second
        drawing which is in 46, so we are now one year later.
        could be a little bit more problematic except the fact
        that at that moment images of the crematoria were not
        published.  I just would like to  draw your attention

.          P-38

        drawing No. 5 which is an image of crematorium No.
        as people are coming in, and this was drawn in 1945
and at
        that moment ----
   MR IRVING:  Is that 1945 or 1946?
   A.   1945.
   Q.   I do not have a date on mine.
   A.   OK, it says 1945.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it would not be 1946, would it?
   MR IRVING:  These have been drawn from memory, am I
   A.   These are drawn from memory.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I see.  I thought he was drawing them
         -- no, I see.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, this is very important you should
        appreciate these are drawn after the war.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am afraid I had not, yes.
   A.   These are drawn from memory.  What I would like to say
        that he seems to have a very good memory because the
        time actually that either the plans or images of
        crematorium (ii) or (iii) was published was in 1946 in
        book by Kraus und Kulgar.  That is a very crude image
        which Kraus und Kulgar, they made a little model.  The
        plans were not published by the Polish Commission in
        1946.  So we have here in 1945 someone who has been in
        that building, who lived in that building, who was a
        sonderkommando, who is a very, very experienced
        and painter, had a career before the war as a painter

.          P-39

        obviously, has a good visual memory and who draws this
        building; and when one compares this building with the
        images of crematorium No. (iii), then in general one
        say that, indeed, he remembered quite well.  So I
        say that this building suggests at least that he is at
        least knows what he sees and he is a credible witness
        even when he works from memory.
   Q.   What is it that you derive from photograph No. 5?
   A.   Nothing, except that I want to show that it is
        that he is able to remember this building as well as
        does without any visual aids.
                  Then we come to No. 6 which is a drawing he
        in 1946 of the same building which is crematorium
        No. (iii).
   MR IRVING:  Which is a mirror image of No. (ii), is that
   A.   Yes.  What he does there, there is one problem with
        drawing because he has to try to represent something
        is hidden, but we where see in the middle level, to
        that is the incineration hole with the ovens, the
        which are labelled as No. H in this case, and we see
        No. I, we see the coke to the right, we see the little
        officers, the SS man sitting there with the window
        which he looks at the incineration room, you see
   Q.   Which is the gas chamber in this building?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Bottom level, is it?

.          P-40

   A.   At the bottom level, No. D.  Of course, the gas
        taken from this perspective, would have been hidden
        when we see the soldier standing at No. C in the
        the gas chamber would have basically been running to
        back out of the plain of the ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Towards the ----
   A.   Not towards, that would have been crematorium (ii).
        runs away from us, if we go back to the original plan
        I showed you which was No. (i).  So the problem he had
        how to represent that gas chamber.  So he drew it as
if it
        is under the incineration room because there was no
        way to really represent it, because he also wants to
        represent the undressing room which is No. A.  You see
        there are basically two stairs, one stair to the left
        people that are going down and we see the second stair
        at No. B.
   MR IRVING:  In other words, his memory was wrong; he drew
it in
        a way it actually was not?
   A.   No, his memory is absolutely right.
   Q.   But you said that he drew it in a way that it is not
        because he wanted to represent it -- he could not do
   A.   No, I mean, he had to represent the location of the
        chamber which is because the gas chamber jots out from
        plain of the drawing.  He now draws it under the
        incineration room, but, in fact, it goes, you know, it

.          P-41

        goes to the back.  I can do it, I mean, if this is the
        plain of the drawing, then the gas chamber would have
        like this, to the back.  So he has to represent it one
        or another and he does it a little bit in the way as
        probably somebody in ancient Egypt would have done it.
   Q.   Was Mr Olaire ever interrogated or questioned?  Did he
        provide eyewitness statements?
   A.   No, I am happy to answer that he was not, but I would
        to finish the drawing.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, make your point on this because I
        not understood it yet.
   A.   The major point is seen at No. E, one sees here in the
        drawing, and the photocopy is not very good, but E
        at some shadow -- it is almost seems like a shadow
        down from the roof of the gas chamber to the bottom,
        then you see three others, and the most right one is
        clearest one in this photocopy and these are the four
        mesh introduction columns.
   MR IRVING:  This is in 1946?
   A.   This is in 1946.
   Q.   You are saying that he has not heard any stories at
all of
        what allegedly went on?
   A.   I do not know exactly about the state of communication
        1945 and '46, but the eyewitness testimony about these
        introduction columns was given in May 1945 to Jan
        but it was only published somewhere in 1946 and it was

.          P-42

        actually the actual Kuhler document, and the actual, I
        mean, I mean the results were only published but the
        statements themselves were never published.
   Q.   Am I not right in saying that Mr Tauber, when he gave
        statements to Jan Sehn, there were many photo
        opportunities and his photographs were splashed all
        the press with stories, the other eyewitness, and that
        would have been early 1946 or 1945?
   A.   I do not know of any photo opportunities for Mr Tauber
        having been published in the press.  If you can bring
        this, you know, I would be very happy to consider it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor van Pelt, can I just make sure
        I have understood it, that when you say that these
        the projections, whatever they may have been, you are
        talking about -- can you see -- that smudge there,
        smudge there, that smudge there?
   A.   No, that is actually, that is the installation which
        brings forced air into the ovens which actually, so
        other little -- no, the smudges are going down.  I
        to interpret what your finger is doing.
   Q.   There?
   A.   No, that is the door.  That is the door.  You are
        now to the door.
   Q.   Hold up your plan and tell me where I am supposed to
        evidence of these projections?
   A.   Do you see the arrow with No. E?

.          P-43

   Q.   Yes.
   A.   There you see where it just goes down, the arrow just
        points at a first line going down, but the most
        one is the one ----
   Q.   Oh, I see.
   A.   --- the clearest one is the one which is half a
        away from D Olaire, for his name.  There are four of
        columns quite literally drawn into this gas chamber
   MR IRVING:  But, in fact, he has it on the wrong side of
        building.  You accept that?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, he has turned it 90 degrees on its
        axis, that is your evidence?
   A.   Yes.  Then we have a third piece by Olaire which again
        a drawing from 1946 which is No. 7.  There we see two
        sonderkommandos who are collecting, as it says, gold
        and hair in the gas chamber.  Then we see in the
        background, we see one of those columns.
   MR IRVING:  The cross-hatching, you mean?
   A.   The cross-hatching, yes.  It is drawn in the same way
   Q.   Are you saying they actually did this job of removing
        gold teeth and the hair actually inside the gas
   A.   No.  In general, they did it outside the gas chamber,
        you must remember ----
   Q.   The picture says it is happening in the gas chamber,
        according to you?

.          P-44

   A.   But you must remember that by the end of 1943 the gas
        chamber of crematorium (ii) was divided into two.  There
        was a back gas chamber and there was a gas chamber in front.
   Q.   Here is the wire mesh in the back of this picture?
   A.   No, but there were two wire mesh columns in the back gas
        chamber and there were two wire mesh columns in the front
        gas chamber.

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