Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.17
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Nowhere do I find -- correct me if I am wrong -- in any
        of your published works at least one natural explanation
        of this passage in Hitler's speech on 26th May 1944, which
        is this: "I solved the matter simply in the most simple
        way I could which is by killing them.  I am sorry that it
        was not more humane".  You could of course have gone on to
        say, I am sure that is what he meant to say.  You have to
        explain away what Himmler had said on the previous
        occasion as well.  But I do not even find that explanation
        anywhere do I ?
   A.   If you look on page 632, Mr Rampton, at the end of the
        Adolf Hitler speech, May 26th 1944.
   Q.   Yes I see that.
   A.   We have spirited applause at the end of the speech and
        then the two lines as follows.  This is me, David
        Irving. "In Auschwitz"In Auschwitz, the defunct
        paraphernalia of death- idle since late 1943- began to
        clank again as the first trainloads from Hungary arrived."
        Does this not say everything to you?
   Q.   No, it does not. That is exactly my point.

.          P-152



   A.   After we have listened to these two speeches set out
at
        unusual length, if I may say so, almost the whole page
of
        the book, I then say: For once, I give the reader a
little
        hint as to what cause and effect is.
   Q.   Why does the poor little reader -- in 91 they have
just
        become slave labour at the I G Farben plant but that
is a
        different point.  We will come to that.
   A.   I think this is quite an important point.  This is the
way
        do things when you write books.  You give the
document,
        you give the quote and, in case you think the reader
is
        not going to get the point, you spell it out in one
and a
        half lines.  You say what you are going to say, you
say
        what you say and then you say what you have said.
   Q.   Mr Irving, surely, in a book like this, had you not
been
        set on exculpating Adolf Hitler, you would have said,
        would you not, and evidence, evidence, of what Hitler
was
        referring to by the simple means was killing, is that
in
        July of 1944 or before, in consequence of the fact
that
        the Hungarians had surrendered their 400,000 Jews, by
        order of the high hierarchy in Berlin, Auschwitz
started
        up again?
   A.   Well, how many lines is that?
   Q.   So what?
   A.   You say "so what" but ----
   Q.   You put in what, if I may say so, is a lot of Hitler's
        sludge which you did not need?

.          P-153



   A.   Well, I thought -- this is not Hitler sludge.  This is
a
        pure speech.  I am the first person to find it and you
        will find that when I found something for the first
time,
        I tended to put more than usual in so that other
        historians can have a bite at it too in case they
cannot
        get hold of the original transcript.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I, if you are about to leave that,
        Mr Rampton, just ask ----
   MR RAMPTON:  I am, I am going to go away from that now.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- Mr Irving what the defunct
paraphernalia
        of death at Auschwitz actually were?
   A.   I prefer to leave it like that at that point.
   Q.   No, but I am asking you now, when you wrote that you
must
        have had something in mind.
   A.   When I wrote that, I assumed that they had gas
chambers,
        the whole factory of death paraphernalia, yes, my
Lord.
        You will find that when we get to the 1991 edition,
that
        sentence has been changed.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I follow that.  Thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I am going to leave that aspect of
        Hitler's knowledge in the spring of '44 and move
backwards
        in time because it is dealt with as a separate topic
in
        Professor Evans.  That is what Mr Irving calls the
        Schlegelberger note.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we spell that for the benefit of the
        transcriber?

.          P-154



   MR RAMPTON:  It is "S C H L E G E B E R G E R".  Before I
come
        on to this and, Mr Irving, I call it the so-called
        Schlegelberger note because, whatever you may think,
we
        and I, that is to say, are by no means certain that
that
        is what it ought to be called.  The reasons for that
will
        emerge in a moment.  But before we start on this
topic,
        you just said about Hitler's May 26th speech that you
do
        not extrapolate "I am inclined to stick more closely
to
        what we find in the record with no quantum leap", yes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Well, bear that in mind, will you, as we look at your
        treatment of this particular document.  My Lord, it
        starts, this exercise, which I am afraid is a little
bit
        tedious, however it must be done, on page 363 of
Professor
        Evans' report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have we got the Schlegelberger note
        somewhere?  Is it worth looking at that or not?
   MR RAMPTON:  It certainly is.  It will be necessary to look
at
        it.  Yes, it will.
   A.   I have the entire file with the original just in case
we
        need it.
   Q.   The best copy, well, there are two copies of it.
There is
        a translation of it at the top of page 364 of
Professor
        Evans.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That will do, I suspect.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, no, it will not, I am afraid, because,
as

.          P-155



        often in these cases, the markings on the note may be
        thought to have some significance.  It is necessary to
        look at the actual note.  That, my Lord, is to be
found in
        two places.  It is in H1 (viii) at page 368, which is
the
        Evans' copy, but it is also to be found on Mr Irving's
web
        site -- in some senses this is a more satisfactory
copy --
        at page 1561 of file D8(iv).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not got that either -- yes, I
have.
        That is better actually.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship might appreciate looking at that
one
        too.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Instead?
   MR RAMPTON:  No both, and maybe put the Evans one away.
That
        is matter for your Lordship entirely.  It is the same
        document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will stick with the one I have got.
Page,
        sorry? I did not catch that in the web site.
   MR RAMPTON:  In the Evans' one, my Lord?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, the web site one.
   MR RAMPTON:  Web site one is 1561.  It is in a box at the
top
        of the page.
   A.   That has the translation with it?
   Q.   Pardon?
   A.   That has the translation with it.
   Q.   It does too.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you got it?

.          P-156



   A.   I have it here.
   MR RAMPTON:  You translate it as meaning:  "Mr Reich
Minister
        Lammers told me, informed me, that the Fuhrer had
        repeatedly declared to him that he wants to hear the
        solution of the Jewish problem has been postponed
until
        after the war is over".  Which are the words which say
        that he wants to hear?
   A.   "Wissen", he wants to know that, he wants to -- I am
        trying to remain, adhere as closely as possible to the
        sense of the document, "wissen volle".
   Q.   I see.  Then you go on:  "That being so, the current
        discussions are of purely theoretical value, Mr Reich
        Minister Lammers' opinion.  He will moreover take
pains to
        ensure that, whatever happens, no fundamental
decisions
        are taken without his knowledge in consequence of a
        surprise briefing by any third party."
                  Now, that document is undated, is it not?
   A.   That is undated, yes.
   Q.   It comes from a file of somewhat miscellaneous
documents,
        does it not?
   A.   Well, it is a Ministry of Justice file headed
"Treatment
        of the Jews".
   Q.   Yes?
   A.   "The Reichs Ministry of Justice", the label on the
jacket
        of the file is [German].
   Q.   My understanding, however, is that this file was one
that

.          P-157



        was used by the Allies or may even have been put
together
        by the Allies; is that right?
   A.   A photocopy of the file was made at the 777 Berlin
        Document Centre, and the photocopies were supplied to
the
        prosecution authorities at Nuremberg, where they were
        handled by Dr Kempner.
   Q.   Can you look -- I do not want to read it out because
it is
        really too boring in a sense -- I wonder if you could
        look, read to yourself, and I would ask your Lordship
to
        do the same, please, paragraphs 4, 5, 6 and 7, the
first
        sentence of 7, perhaps the whole of 7, of Professor
Evans'
        report starting on page 364?  To hear me read it out
would
        drive everybody mad, I am sure.
   A.   Yes, he obviously has problems with it.
   Q.   Well, do you not?
   A.   Not at all.
   Q.   Have you read the whole of that?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just pause a moment.  I am sure Mr Irving
        knows it by heart.  I do not.
   A.   I am rather amused by the problems he has with it.
This
        is one document that just does not fit into the
Holocaust
        historians' repertoire.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  You have been absolutely categorical that this
        document comes from March 1942, have you not, Mr
Irving?
   A.   Yes, the end of March or early April.

.          P-158



   Q.   Do you see on your copy in the web site the name
        "Freisler"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What do you think of those letters or digits which
appear
        before Mr Freisler's name?
   A.   Staatssekretar, STS, big S, little T -- this is old
German
        handwriting -- [German] handwriting it is called --
        capital S, little T, full stop, S, Staatssekretar.  He
was
        State secretary in the Ministry of Justice.
   Q.   Why has it got his name on it?
   A.   That is the routing list.  It is going to go, first of
        all, to the State Secretary, then to the person whose
        department is listed on the next line, department 4,
then
        to department 5.  Normally, you would expect there to
be a
        little tick or a check mark next to it or an initial
to
        indicate that, yes, they have seen it.  So this is not
a
        man who has written it.  This is who it is intended
for.
   Q.   Then, please, let us remind ourselves of what you said
        about this document.  First of all, page 464 of
Hitler's
        War 1991.  When did you discover this document, by the
        way?
   A.   In stages, if I may put it like that.  Beginning in
1970,
        I found the reference in a summary of it, and then
        I received the actual document itself from a German
        historian in about 1978 and simultaneously, I believe,
        from the United States national archives.

.          P-159



   Q.   You did not have it then when you first -- I do not
know
        if it is in '77 Hitler's War or not.  I am not
interested
        if it is?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It could not be if he did not have it
until
         '78.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, I would not have thought ----
   A.   My Lord, let me be just slightly more specific.  Your
        Lordship will recall that I said that photocopies went
to
        the prosecution authorities in Nuremberg.  The
location of
        the origin, of the originals, I do not know
thereafter,
        but the photocopies remained in Nuremberg.
                  The Americans produced what was called a
staff
        evidence analysis sheet which listed the contents of
that
        little clip of documents which I have here in my hand.
It
        listed five documents in that clip, and document No. 4
was
        note stating that Hitler intended to postpone solution
of
        the Jewish problem until after the war which,
obviously,
        is something which immediately attracted my attention.
                  This staff evidence analysis sheet is dated
June
        22nd 1946, in the middle of the Nuremberg trials, in
other
        words.  When I went to the file which this referenced,
all
        the other documents, the photocopies, were in that
file.
        This one had vanished.  It took some years to locate
the
        originals with the original file still in it, the
original
        document still in it.  I can only surmise that this is
        possibly totally uncalled for, that the allied
prosecution

.          P-160



        authorities in Nuremberg did not want that document to
        surface.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why not?
   A.   Because it would have been used by Lammers, in particular,
        who was on trial in 1947 as a document to mitigate
        punishment or in some way to disculpate himself for any
        part in the Final Solution; that he would have pointed out
        that, as far as he knew, Hitler had ordered that nothing
        was to happen.  We conducted quite a paper trail.
        I contacted Mr Kempner which drew up this staff analysis
        sheet and we had quite a long search for it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You eventually got it in about '78?
   A.   Yes, a rival historian got hold of the original document
        Professor Jekkel(?) because by that time the German
        Government archives had processed the file and found it.
        But it took 23 years just to process that file.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can we please go, therefore, to page 464 of
        Hitler's War?
   A.   Of the?
   Q.   1991.  My Lord, that is volume 2, but your Lordship will
        shortly need volume 1 because I am going to refer to the
        introduction.  I want to look at the text first.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have 464.

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