Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.07
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

Q.   For some idiotic reason, he has put it in inverted commas,
        which rather gives the game away, does it not?
   A.   It does, yes.
   Q.   That is code for gassing truck, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which camp is being referred to?
   MR RAMPTON:  Semlernin outside Belgrade.  So the same
business
        is going on there as elsewhere.  I do not know how
many
        they managed to -- well, you can see how many they
managed
        to polish off if you look at 5212 of Professor
Browning's
        report?
   A.   Can I stay with this document for a moment, Mr
Rampton?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   And say, if I was cantankerous, there are any number
of
        reasons why I could challenge this document, but I do
not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Then you do not need to spend time on it.
   A.   For example, it is on non-standard German size paper.
It
        does not use the S runes.  It has wierd typed toward
in SS
        runes and so on.  But I do not.  I fully accept that
it is

.          P-57



        genuine and I think it important to make that
distinction.
        This is quite clearly a very sinister document.
   MR RAMPTON:  Do you now accept therefore that statements
that
        you have made to the effect that oh, yes they used gas
        trucks on a very limited scale for experiments were
just
        plain wrong?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And do you also accept, which is the important
question,
        that, before making a statement of that kind about
such an
        important matter, it matters not that these people
were
        Jews, they were human beings, do you not think, before
        making such statements, it behoved you to do a little
bit
        of research in accessible files?
   A.   Mr Rampton, I was being asked this question at a press
        conference, if you remember.  I did not volunteer the
        information.  Somebody asked me did I accept that
there
        had been such use of gas trucks.  My information at
that
        time was based on what I knew from Adolf Eichmann's
papers
        that he himself had taken part in those experimental
runs.
   Q.   I am just pausing only, Mr Irving, because I want to
find
        what you said about it in the pleadings.
   A.   Yes.  It is in answer to a question, if I am right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In the pleadings I think it is a limited
        experimental basis, is it not?
   A.   I think this really falls into two or three parts.
        I quite clearly said yes, there were gassings in gas

.          P-58



        trucks, but at that time the state of my knowledge was
        that it had not been on anything like this scale.
   MR RAMPTON:  This was probably some time served in 1996 or
1997
        I should think.  Yes, it is in the reply, my Lord.  It
is
        on page 3 of the reply.  It was served in March 1997.
One
        part of it says this: "It is denied that the plaintiff
has
        denied the Holocaust.  It is denied that the plaintiff
has
        denied that gas chambers were used by the Nazis as the
        principal means of carrying out that extermination".
        I think those two sentences are going to be
contradictory
        with what next follows. "They may have used them on
        occasion on an experimental scale which frankly is not
        denied".  That is in March 1997.  This is a considered
        statement by you for the purpose of these proceedings?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And I have just shown you what is not a particularly
        secret document in the historical sense.
   A.   Which shows that that element of my statement was
wrong,
        yes.
   Q.   And you made the same statement to the public at
large?
   A.   In response to a question on the basis of my
information
        at that time.
   Q.   I think I am going to be enabled to contradict that,
too,
        in a moment.
   A.   I think it also has to be said that these gas trucks
of
        course did not carry on month after month after month

.          P-59



        after month after month.  According to the information
in
        this document and others, it just operated for a few
        weeks.
   Q.   Tell me, Mr Irving, we got to 97,000 in a month.
   A.   Yes, which certainly seems an incredible figure, when
you
        have only three trucks, they can only take 20 at a
time
        and they have to drive 20 miles into the country side.
        But I do not have the information on which to
challenge
        the figure, apart from the inherent improbability of
that
        figure.
   Q.   It is a massive figure.
   A.   You also have to remember that they are bragging and
        boasting about what they have achieved.
   Q.   Yes, of course.  There is always that danger, that
they
        are seeking to please somebody.  If that were so,
        Mr Irving, I think that letter about the 97,000 sent
to
        Himmler, I cannot remember?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   They must have believed, if they were exaggerating,
that
        Himmler was avid for information, telling him that
vast
        numbers of Jews had been murdered.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Right, and you say, oh, it is not really credible that
        Hitler knew anything about that?
   A.   I do not see the connection between those two
statements.
   Q.   You have been, I think, in the services, have you not?

.          P-60



   A.   Is it not remarkable we have documents of this quality
for
        everything below Himmler, but not a single page above
        Himmler?
   Q.   Yes. How often do you say that Hitler and Himmler met
in
        the course of a week?
   A.   It varied through the year, depending on whether he
was in
        or out of favour.
   Q.   When they were on good terms?
   A.   I would suggest two or three times a week.
   Q.   You were in the army, I think?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Navy?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Air force?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Right.  So you have not been in service?  Have you
ever
        worked in a company?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Do you know anything about how companies work?  For
        example, do you know anything about the day-to-day
        relationship between a managing director and a chief
        executive?
   A.   No.
   Q.   You live in a little world of your own, do you,
        Mr Irving?  You know nothing about the means by which
        humans convey information to each other in matters of

.          P-61



        importance on a day to day----
   A.   Mr Rampton, it was not the question you asked.  You
asked
        specifically whether I had been in companies, army,
navy
        or air force and I said no.
   Q.   Do you not think it more than likely, leave aside
report
        number 51 which speaks for itself, that on a day-to-
day
        basis Himmler and Hitler would have talked about all
the
        things that concerned him.  Obviously Hitler, as
leader of
        his country, would be chiefly concerned with the
progress
        of the war, would he not?
   A.   I do not think so.  I think there is written evidence
        that, whenever people went to Hitler with stories of
the
        atrocities they had heard about, Himmler's immediate
        response was always as relayed back to the person
        concerned, usually through Lammas, "Do not bother the
        Fuhrer with this, he will only say this is all
Himmler's
        business and I do not want to hear about it".
   Q.   Then why did Himmler bother having the Korheir report
        edited in March 1943 to take out the word
        sonderbehandlung?
   A.   Very interesting, is it not, that it was camouflaged
        downward?
   Q.   Answer my question, please. If it is right that Hitler
was
        not interested in that kind of thing and would just
have
        swept it aside and said oh, that is all Himmler's
        business, silly old fool, he is passionate about this

.          P-62



        Jewish question, it would not mattered, would it?
   A.   I think the Korheir report really needs a discussion
of
        its own without being dealt with in this rather
flippant
        manner.
   Q.   Please, Mr Irving, could I have an answer to my
question?
        Why do you think that Himmler had that report
sanitized,
        as I put it?
   A.   Well I am not inside Himmler's head but, if the
original
        report said expressus verbus, or as plain as a pike
staff,
        that a million Jews had been killed or
sonderbehandlung
        zugefuhrt, but if Himmler says I want a shorter
version
        without that in so that I can show it to the Fuhrer,
        I think that that very much supports what I have said
        rather than what you are maintaining.
   Q.   What it means, Mr Irving, is this, is it not, that if
the
        word sonderbehandlung had been left in, Hitler would
have
        known exactly what it meant?
   A.   Well, in the way that it was written, if you remember,
if
        1,200,000 people are subjected to special treatment at
a
        camp, that does not mean they are having their hair
cut.
   Q.   It did not say at a camp.  It said in the Warthegau
and I
        think in the General Government.
   A.   I beg to differ.  I know that document fairly clearly.
   Q.   Maybe we will go back to later on.  I do not have a
copy
        of that.
   A.   I really think that document, if we are going to deal
with

.          P-63



        it, should be dealt with extensively rather than here
in
        this rather cursory manner.
   Q.   Mr Irving, I am taking what I know of it simply from
your
        own book.
   A.   Yes, but you have quoted it wrongly there from memory,
and
        I know the exact text.
   Q.   I am afraid, Mr Irving, that you are going to have to
look
        at this, because this is important.  This is one of
the
        two most important aspects of the case.
   A.   Mr Rampton, you will always find I am willing to eat
        humble pie if I have made a mistake.  There is never
any
        question about that.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, this is D3(i), tab 30.  Mr Irving, do
you
        have there a paper by you with the suppressed Eichmann
and
        Goebbels papers?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is presented by you at the 11th IHR conference in
        October 1992?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do you write these things before you present them?
   A.   No.
   Q.   So you spoke, as it were, off the top of your head.
   A.   I am well known for that.
   Q.   Yes, I can believe that.
   A.   Some people say it is waffling but other people say it
is
        lecturing.

.          P-64



   Q.   You see, Mr Irving, that the questions begin at page
174.
        Is this yet again one of those papers that you had
        checked, or you checked or approved before publication
in
        print?
   A.   I would probably have edited it for split infinitives
and
        the like.
   Q.   Yes, quite.  Now turn to page 173.  Remember this is
in
        October 1992.  This is a bit I read to you earlier but
it
        is well we see it in context, as part of what shall I
say,
        not a rehearsed but as part of a serious paper
presented
        to something which calls itself the Institute for
        Historical Review.  You see the passage that I read to
you
        earlier halfway down the page, bang in the middle of
the
        left-hand column on page 173.  I do not know why
Eichmann
        recounted that kind of detail in his memoirs?
   A.   Can we have what the detail was?
   Q.   Absolutely not.
   A.   May I read if out after you have dealt with it?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes you can, but then I will ask you why
you
        want it read out.  Let's get on with Mr Rampton's
        question.
   MR RAMPTON:  So shall I.  Go down to the end of that
paragraph
        in the middle of the page on page 173.  You say: "So
        I accept this kind of experiment, we are talking about
a
        gassing experiment in a bus witnessed by Eichmann,
what
        you call a gassing experiment, so I accept that this
kind

.          P-65



        of experiment was made on a very limited scale but
that it
        was rapidly abandoned as being a totally inefficient
way
        of killing people.  But I do not accept that the gas
        chambers existed and this is well known.  I have seen
no
        evidence at all that gas chambers existed".  Unless
you
        are going to quibble about the word "chambers", Mr
Irving,
        the fact is that what you said about the gassing on
that
        bus and the limited kind of scale for that kind of
        experimental gassing, was just rubbish, was it not?
   A.   Mr Rampton, when you talk about gas chambers and the
        public perception, people are imagining what they see
at
        Auschwitz, the big concrete fixtures, the chimneys,
the
        steel doors, the whole of the paraphernalia.  I am
sure
        that I am right on that.

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