The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.20

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.20
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Do you know him well?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Is he a reliable gentleman?
   A.   On the evidence of that, no.

.          P-172

   Q.   Is he a friend of yours?
   A.   Probably no longer.
   Q.   Probably no longer.  Seriously though, how close is your
        association with Mr Weber?
   A.   I see him about once every two years.
   Q.   Do you correspond regularly?
   A.   He occasionally telephones me.  I am glad he is paying the
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think if I were you, I would remember
        having said that if I said it.
   A.   Having said this?  It is the precise wording that
        me, my Lord.  The sense is correct.
   Q.   I see.  Do not worry about the precise wording.  Is
        substance of it, did you make the points that Dresden
        a Holocaust or Auschwitz is a non-Holocaust because it
        not happen?
   A.   I did not say that and I do not think even this says
        my Lord.  What I have said is that Dresden was a real
        Holocaust.  I have witnessed the pictures.
   Q.   Well, you then go on to say that of the Jews in the
        chambers of Auschwitz is an invention?
   A.   Well, it is no secret that I have said that no Jews
        killed in the gas chambers at Auschwitz that are shown
        the tourists, but that is the kind of limitation which
        Mr Rampton would probably find unhelpful.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  That is one of your own, what I might

.          P-173

        self-set traps, Mr Irving.  You have occasionally made
        reference to the reconstructed gas chamber at
Auschwitz 1,
        the Stumlager.  You have on numerous occasions said
        there were no gas chambers anywhere in the German
        That must include Birkenhau; we have just looked at
        such remark.
   A.   Well, I think you ought really to lead evidence to
        and not just summarize ----
   Q.   Am I right or -- it will ----
   A.   --- to this effect.
   Q.   --- save so much time, Mr Irving, if you would accept
        you have on numerous occasions said there were no gas
        chambers, plural, at Auschwitz?
   A.   Well, I am sure that if you had evidence to that
        then you would have started off the afternoon by
   Q.   No.  Well, I will try to find your Chappaquidick
        Here we are, this is in November 1990, something
        the Latvian Hall ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Reference?
   MR RAMPTON:  That is the wrong one.  I am so sorry.  There
        the one I read out.  D2(i), my Lord, tab 9.  This is
        so I have got ahead of the chronology, so it does not
        matter.  I will start, if I may, with page 14?
   A.   At tab 9, you say?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I think so.

.          P-174

   MR RAMPTON:  Page 14 of tab 9, Mr Irving?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Which is a speech at, well, this is called Travel
        Airport Inn, is that the same thing as Latvian Hall?
   A.   2,000 miles away, otherwise it is the same, yes.
   Q.   Oh, yes, this is Calgary, yes.  Quite right.  Now I am
        going to start at ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  10 lines down.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, something like that.  You were saying
        Elie Wiesel is a liar.  I am not the least bit
        in the answer to that question -- it is not a question
        that observation, not the slightest bit, so please do
        but in with something about Eli Wiesel.  "And so are
        other eyewitnesses in Auschwitz who claim they saw
        gassings going on because there were no gas chambers
        Auschwitz, as the forensic tests show."
                  Mr Irving, is that right?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So when I said a moment ago that you had referred to
        chambers in the plural, as you had at the Leuchter
        conference, I was right?
   A.   Well, I could quite simply say this is a matter of
   Q.   No.
   A.   I could say there is no Chinaman sitting in your team,
        I could equally well say there are no Chinamen sitting

.          P-175

        your team.  Both facts are equally correct if there is
   Q.   Yes, Mr Irving, that is, I am afraid, a rather poor
   A.   It is an exact parallel.
   Q.   Mr Irving, you said at the Chelsea Press Conference,
        Leuchter Press Conference, that there were no gas
        at Auschwitz or elsewhere?
   A.   Mr Rampton, you are showing us one speech in Calgary
        suddenly you switch to Chelsea.
   Q.   I am going to show you a dozen references.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, shall we deal with this one first?
   MR RAMPTON:  When you made that remark, am I right, am I
        not  ----
   A.   If there was no gas chamber at Auschwitz, then there
        no gas chambers at Auschwitz.
   Q.   Mr Irving, please try to focus on the question.
   A.   It is precisely the question you asked me and I am
   Q.   No, you had said no gas chambers, plural, at
        what it means we can argue about later on.  You knew
        you made that observation, did you not, Mr Irving,
        Mr Leuchter had purported to sample the ruins of the
        supposed gas chambers at Birkenhau, did you not?
   A.   Also, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  So your assertion was meant to mean there were

.          P-176

        gas chambers at what people generally think of as
        Auschwitz, that is to say Auschwitz 1 which is
        unimportant, and also at Birkenhau?
   A.   Oh, we are slopping over the whole thing into
        too now, are we?
   Q.   What do you mean?  Every time ----
   A.   I am clearly talking about Auschwitz here and you want
        drag Birkenhau under that umbrella as well.
   Q.   You meant to refer to Birkenhau, you meant people to
        understand Birkenhau, did you not, Mr Irving, because
        knew that Mr Leuchter's forensic tests related to
        Birkenhau as well as Auschwitz?  You also know that
        everybody thinks when they think of Auschwitz of the
        massive extermination facility at Birkenhau?
   A.   Well, Mr Rampton, you say "everybody thinks" this,
this is
        another of those wild assertions you make, rather like
        previously said everybody says the Holocaust is the
   Q.   Mr Irving ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But it is true, Mr Irving, is it not?
   A.   It is not, my Lord.  It is a very important point.
   Q.   Just speaking for myself, I had never heard of
        but I had heard of Auschwitz.
   A.   Well, you have heard of Auschwitz, but, unfortunately,
        there are two camps.  One is called Auschwitz, one is
        called Birkenhau and there is a third camp called

.          P-177

        which is where the plant was, and experts, the
        are very careful to distinguish between them.
   Q.   Yes, but in terms of lay reaction and understanding,
        almost everybody regards the whole complex as being
        properly called "Auschwitz"?
   A.   I was not talking down to an audience here, my Lord.
        I was speaking ----
   Q.   They were all experts?
   A.   --- in terms of what I could justify.  It would be
        down to them ----
   Q.   Anyway, you accept you said what is recorded as having
        been said here?
   A.   Quite definitely, yes.
   Q.   Do you also accept that you said that the existence of
        hundreds of thousands of eyewitnesses at Auschwitz,
        Auschwitz, is evidence that Auschwitz did not have a
        dedicated programme to kill the Jews there?
   A.   Yes, and I think that is a very fair comment to make.
        we are told that the Nazi programme was one of
        extermination of every Jew that Hitler could get his
        on, the fact that very large numbers evidently
        this programme, they were in the jaws of death at
        Auschwitz, and at Birkenhau ----
   Q.   Hundreds of thousands?
   A.   Indeed.  The figures are very large indeed if we look
        the figures of those who survived the camps.  Anne

.          P-178

        was one example, my Lord.  She was in Auschwitz.  She
        survived Auschwitz.  She was evacuated to Begen-Belsen
        died of typhus there with her family.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, the public perception, or what you
        the legend, is that upwards of a million people were
        deliberately murdered in gas chambers at what people
        Auschwitz.  Do you know that the actual number of
        murdered by that method at Auschwitz 1 was between 10
   A.   No, I do not know that.
   Q.   Where did Mr Leuchter do his forensic tests precisely?
        Tell me that.
   A.   Can we look at the report?
   Q.   Sorry, take the samples for the forensic tests.
   A.   Can we look at the report and see?
   Q.   No, no.  I want to know what you know about this.
        I really do not want you to deflect my questions by
        forever trying to refer to something else.  Tell me,
        will, whether you know as a fact or you knew as a
        rather, at the time when you were speaking here that
        had taken samples from the ruins of crematoria 2, 3, 4
        5 at Birkenhau?
   A.   I am certainly not going to answer a detailed question
        like that from memory of a document I saw 12 years
   Q.   You knew he had taken samples from Birkenhau, did you
   A.   Yes.

.          P-179

   Q.   You knew that those samples had been subjected to
        chemical tests, did you not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Right.  Please turn to page 11 of this transcript that
        are presently looking at.  About halfway, just under
        halfway, I would say two thirds of the way down, there
        a sentence which begins: "And it was the forensic
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "And it was the forensic tests", those, Mr Irving, in
        mind are the Liechter tests at Auschwitz One and at
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   As you have just told us: "On the gas chambers" plural
        Auschwitz which has totally exploded the legend", now
        is "the legend"?
   A.   The legend of Auschwitz as a factory of death,
        purpose-built with gas chambers that clanked into
        operation and killed upwards, as you say, of a million
   Q.   Of which the major component, as I have just suggested
        you, by a very long way was Birkenhau?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Thank you.  Now can we please go to ----
   A.   A major component of a legend, yes.
   Q.   Of course, Mr Irving.  Page 22.  I am going to read
        the beginning actually of this is in connection with

.          P-180

        piece of pleading that I read out to you, from the
        beginning of the big paragraph about a quarter of the
        down the page: "There is more to come.  'Irving has
        welcomed in Ottawa.  Less publicized but no less
        disgusting are Irving's on women.  He argues that
        brains are 10 per cent smaller than men's".  This is
        Mr Irving speaking:
                  "You see they are scraping, it is true, they
        are scraping the bottom of the barrel now.  They are
        trying to appeal to all the organizations in Ottawa
        are being called together under a mass demonstration
        against the gays, the lesbians, the communists, the
        unions, all these people".
   A.   You will notice I do not mention the Jews there even
        this audience, is that not surprising for an
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us read it through.
   MR RAMPTON:  "All these people are being called out to
        demonstrate against me on October 6th." Was that true?
   A.   Yes, we had rented the biggest hall in Ottawa for me to
        speak in and massive attempts were being made to shut me

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