Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.19
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   That is not fair.  I am anxious not to have
        a sort of running commentary about the evidence, but the
        fact is, it seems to me on what I have heard so far, that
        you have been far more unrestrained in your assertions

.          P-162


        about Auschwitz when speaking at these various talks that
        you gave.
   A.   Private gatherings, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Gatherings.  Well, I do not know that it
        matters very much that they are private gatherings.
        I think the Defendants are perfectly entitled to put that
        to you.
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I bear in mind what you said about these
        being, relatively speaking, unconsidered remarks, but the
        fact is you made them, so I am not going to stop
        Mr Rampton.  Indeed, I think it is very important that we
        do see some of the things that have been said.  We are on
        now to the press conference.  That is Tab 5.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving was about to say provided your Lordship
        does not attach too much weight.  On the contrary, Mr
        Irving----
   A.   I was not.  I was about to say provided he bears in mind
        they are extempore, not scripted.
   Q.   On the contrary, Mr Irving, what you say in private to
        what I might call people of like mind is, in our
        submission, likely to be far more revealing of your true
        thoughts and motives than what you carefully craft for
        publication to the world at large.  Do you follow me?
   A.   I do not follow where you get people of like mind from.
        What is the evidence for that?

.          P-163

   Q.   We are coming to that when we look at some of your
        remarks, for example, to the national alliance.
   A.   We have just been looking at this particular meeting.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us get on. I really think we are spending
        an awful lot of time debating and fencing.  The thing is,
        I need to be shown what it is the Defendants rely on that
        you said and to hear what you say about it now, Mr Irving.
   MR RAMPTON:  In answering your Lordship's request I am only
        showing your Lordship a fragment of what we rely on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  I follow that.  Prime example.  So
        press conference.
   MR RAMPTON:  Can we turn next, please, to page 35 of tab 5?
        Before I do that, Mr Julius has drawn to my attention
        something which your Lordship may actually think
really
        rather important.  Mr Irving challenges me to justify
my
        observation, proposition, that these remarks, these,
what
        shall I say, unclothed naked remarks, are to people of
        like mind.  I do that by reference, if I may, before
        I leave tab 4, to page 16, and we see this again when
we
        get, for example, to Calgary in 1991.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Whereabouts on the page?
   MR RAMPTON:  In the middle of the page there is a sentence
        which starts: "The Auschwitz propaganda lie that was
        starting to run in 1944 is now out of control and it
is
        going to take he men of the kind of stature of Ernst
        Zundel to kill that particular hare.  Applause."

.          P-164



                  That is not the only such example.
   A.   Of what?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think the question, because it was not
        quite put as a question, is does that not show that
you
        were addressing a bunch of supporters of Zundel?
   A.   I think they were just people who appreciated the fact
        that I had compassion for a man who had had his house
        burned down and been subjected to repeated physical
        violence and that he was still standing up to this
kind of
        intimidation.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is the answer.  On to the press
        conference, page 35.
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 35.  You are answering questions at the
press
        conference.  Just under halfway down the page somebody
        asks: "Everybody who has written about their camp
        experiences ----" You do not allow them to finish what
        they were going to say, Mr Irving.  You butt in:
"Anybody
        who has described gas chambers in slave labour camps
at
        Auschwitz or anywhere else is to my mind making it
up."
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Did you mean to say that?
   A.   Well, I think that, if I had written this sentence out
        logically and not in this incoherent scramble, it
would
        have been anybody who has described gas chambers in
the
        slave labour camp at Auschwitz is to my mind making it
up
        and it has probably come out a bit garbled, for which
of

.          P-165



        course I accept full responsibility.
   Q.   What do you mean, garbled?  It is a perfectly good
English
        sentence.  Garble:  It is as clear as a shaft of
        sunlight.
   A.   In slave labour camps at Auschwitz or elsewhere.
   Q.   Yes, exactly. Or elsewhere. That is why you have used
the
        plural, slave labour camps.
   A.   That is why I am talking about garbled.  You cannot
have
        camps at Auschwitz, when Auschwitz was just one of two
        camps.  It is garbled.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "All" should be "and" really.
   A.   Yes, but the sense of that is saying anybody who
describes
        gas chambers in the slave labour camp at Auschwitz is
to
        my mind making it up.
   MR RAMPTON:  Or elsewhere, gas chambers elsewhere, is
making it
        up too, are they not?
   A.   Well, I might have to be pernickety and say I would
like
        to see me actually saying that and hear what emphasis
is
        attached to the words verbatim.  This is the problem
        with transcripts, particularly when it is an
incoherent
        passage.
   Q.   Questioner: Not at slave labour camps either?  Is that
        what you are saying?
   A.   They have obviously got hold of the wrong end of stick
        straightaway.
   Q.   You repeated, no gas chambers at slave labour camps

.          P-166



        plural.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, is that really fair?  Over
the
        page, "Question: What do you think happened at
Treblinka
        and Sobibor?  I do not know".
   MR RAMPTON:  Fair enough, my Lord, yes. Let us concentrate
on
        Auschwitz. That is danger of taking these plums ----
   A.   Springing them on me like this, that is the danger.
   Q.   What did you say?
   A.   One springs just fragments on me and on the court like
        this, but his Lordship has quite wisely read ahead.
   Q.   Mr Irving, you have for a very long time, I mean
months,
        had a whole list of the speeches, the transcripts of
        speeches etc. on which we rely.  You have had copies
of
        them.  And you made them in the first place.  How can
you
        say I am springing it on you?  What shall I do?  Give
you
        a marked up copy Is that the best thing?  I do not
know
        what your Lordship thinks?
   A.   Sarcasm apart.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we press on and find the other
passages
        relied on? I just think we have to get to the passages
        that are relied on.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am looking, my Lord, yes?
   A.   My Lord, these are not my transcripts.  These are
        transcripts made by --
   MR RAMPTON:  I am looking for a way round two problems, one
        that this is taking far too much time.

.          P-167



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If you went direct to the passages, as it
        were, one after another, would that not help?
   MR RAMPTON:  I just did that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not want to be disobedient but this is
        cross-examination and I cannot just stand in
        cross-examination and read out passages without the
        witness being given a chance to speak about them.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, he has to have a chance to comment
but
        I just wonder whether we do not want to go from one to
        another with a minimum of intervening exchanges.
   MR RAMPTON:  I will do what I can.  I am not going to get
the
        file out for this one because it will take too much
time.
        Do you remember you made a speech at Dresden in
February
        1990?
   A.   On the anniversary of the air raid, yes.
   Q.   So what?
   A.   So what?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us concentrate on what was said.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  Did you say something like this: The
        Holocaust of Germans in Dresden really happened.  That
of
        the Jews in the gas chambers at Auschwitz is an
        invention.  I am ashamed to be an Englishman?
   A.   Could I just have that?
   Q.   By all means, so far as I am concerned.
   A.   There is what happened in Dresden and of that I am

.          P-168



        ashamed.  I am sorry, my Lord, I have only got one
copy
        with me but it is a picture of the old market in
Dresden,
        thousands of bodies, victims of the air raid.  Mr
Rampton,
        you mentioned it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes but I am going to ask you to put it
        down.  We are going to spend no doubt a lot of time on
        Dresden.  The reasons, as you must appreciate, that
        Mr Rampton put that alleged quote was nothing to do
with
        Dresden but what you said by way of comparison between
        Dresden and Auschwitz.  Did you make that comparison?
   A.   Perfectly entitled to I think.
   MR RAMPTON:  Did you say: I am not at present interested in
        Dresden.  We can argue moral and historical questions
        about Dresden until the cows come home.  At the moment
        Mr Irving we are dealing with your statements about
        Auschwitz.
   A.   Can I see the passages you are relying on?
   Q.   Which is why I said so what?
   A.   Can I see the actual passage you are relying on?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That you are perfectly entitled to do.
   MR RAMPTON:  You have to get out another file, D3(i)?
   A.   I am afraid, when somebody says so what about Dresden,-
---
   Q.   No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Please.  There is going to have to be a
        ruling before long.  This is just absurd, this back
and
        forth exchanging.  Dresden is, I am sure, where is it
in

.          P-169



        the index?
   MR RAMPTON:  D3(i) 25, page 493.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you know the internal pagination
        Mr Rampton?
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  I do not have a copy of it here.  I have
only
        got an extract.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you found the passage, Mr Irving?
   A.   I am sorry I have not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think, if things are being put, they
really
        have to be available in documentary form in case Mr
Irving
        wants, as he has in this case, to see the context.
   MR RAMPTON:  I agree with that.  All that follows from this
is
        that the reference I have been given is not the right
        one.  It is entirely my fault.  I am using the  wrong
        idiot's guide to those transcripts.  Can we forget
Dresden
        for the moment, Mr Irving?
   A.   I can never forget Dresden.
   Q.   Not Dresden what happened, what you said about
Auschwitz
        at Dresden, and then come back to it at some later
stage
        if we have to?  In D3(i), page 25, tab 25, may I
please
        have a copy of that file?  There should be, my Lord, a
        speech at an IHR conference on 14th October 1990.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Was that where we were just now, D3(i)?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I think it was because what I am told by
        Miss Rogers is that in that speech one finds a
reference
        back to what Mr Irving said at Dresden.  That, I
think, is

.          P-170



        the point, which is why I was given the page reference
        which I will now go back to.  I am sorry about the
        muddle.
   A.   What is the section again, please, or tab?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  25.
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 493 in this tab.  The page numbers are at
the
        top of the page, Mr Irving.
   A.   I have it.
   Q.   In the right-hand column of page 493 somebody has
        written:  "Irving concluded his address" -- this is
about
        near the end of the middle paragraph -- "in Dresden
with
        these words:  'Ladies and gentlemen, survivors and
        descendants of the holocaust of Dresden, the holocaust
of
        Germans in Dresden really happened.  That of the Jews
in
        the gas chambers of Auschwitz is an invention.  I am
        ashamed to be an Englishman'".
                  This article starts with the heading:
         "Battleship Auschwitz, David Irving, (Remarks
presented
        to the Tenth International Revisionist Conference With
an
        Introduction by Mark Weber".  That recitation or
        repetition of what you had said at Dresden, therefore,
        comes, does it not, the mouth of Mr Weber?
   A.   Did he write this or is this ---
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is his introduction to your talk.
   A.   Very well.
   Q.   It looks as if he did, but the question is was he

.          P-171



        accurate, was he right, had you said that?
   MR RAMPTON:  Did you say that?
   A.   I do not think so.  There is a transcript of my speech
in
        Dresden which your researchers could have obtained.
   Q.   OK.  So Mr Weber got it wrong?
   A.   Well, on the evidence of this document, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is the transcript?
   A.   They could have had the video tape transcribed.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, we have not got a tape of Dresden?
   A.   I am sorry, but a tape was made by Mr Geiger.
   Q.   Maybe it was, but we have not got it.
   A.   I am sorry but ----
   Q.   If you would be kind enough to retrieve it, we should
very
        much like to have it transcribed.
   A.   I will see if I can obtain a copy for you.
   Q.   Which is why our only source of what you said in
Dresden
        is this document.
   A.   Yes, it is not the kind of source that I personally
would
        have relied upon.
   Q.   Who is Mr Weber?
   A.   Mr Weber is, I think he is the head of the Institute
        Historical Review.

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