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Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR RAMPTON:  Auschwitz denial plus Holocaust denial.  That is
        where I propose to start.  Professor van Pelt has only
        just got here.  I do not have the technical stuff in court
        with me, but I do have one more question in relation to
        Hitler's knowledge, Hitler's orders, which I could not ask
        yesterday because I did not have the document, but I have
        it now.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  How long will that take?
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, unpredictable, but it is about two
        questions.  That is not fair.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  About half an hour.  Shall we dispose of that
        and then have the argument and, if it is after lunch, it
        is after lunch.  If it is slightly before lunch, so be
        it.  We will have a five-minute break.
                       (Short Adjournment)
(MR DAVID IRVING, recalled. Cross-Examined by Mr Rampton QC, continued.)

   MR RAMPTON:  May Mr Irving be supplied with the Dr Longerich
        report, please?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, Mr Rampton.  For some reason
        which I do not understand, my Longerich has gone
        missing.  We were looking at it this morning so it

.          P-54

        have got left behind.
   MR RAMPTON:  It may be that we can manage without it, but
        I rather think not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If there is a spare, I would be grateful.
        Otherwise I will do my best.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, could you please turn to page 71 of
        first part of this report?  I will start on page 70.
        usual, I always forget the context.  I would like to
        at 19.6 on page 70, my Lord.  Now we are at the end of
        1942: "For a report to Hitler on 10 December 1942
        set up a handwritten list of the points which he
wanted to
        bring up.  Under 'II. SD and police affairs' Himmler
        specified as point 4 the following key words" -- I
        added the S -- "Jews in France, -- 6-700,000, other
                  Then on page 71 Dr Longerich writes this:
        to these key words can be found a tick and in
        own handwriting the word 'abolished' (abschaffen):
        had thus brought up these points with Hitler and
        permission from him to 'abolish' ie to liquidate (says
        Longerich) the estimated 600,000 to 700,000 Jews in
        as well as 'other enemies'."
                  I am going to read on, if I may: "After the
        meeting, Himmler sent a note to Muller, head of the
        Gestapo, in which he stated: The Fuhrer gave orders
        the Jews and other enemies in France should be

.          P-55

        and deported.  This should take place, however, only
        he has spoken with Laval about it.  It is a matter of
        6-700,000 Jews.
                  "Two months later, in February 1943,
        on a brief visit to Paris visited submitted a maximum
        programme for the deportation of all Jews living in
        including those with French citizenship.
                  "At the meeting on 10 December 1942 Himmler
        presented Hitler with a proposal to set up a work camp
        Jewish hostages from France, Hungary and Romania, for
        altogether 10,000 people.  According to a handwritten
        by Himmler, Hitler accepted this proposal.  After the
        meeting, Himmler sent an order to Muller to
        these 10,000 people in a 'special camp' (Sonderlager).
        stated:  'Certainly they should work there, but under
        conditions whereby they remain healthy and alive'".
                  So far as the documentary references there
        concerned, or citations are concerned, Mr Irving, do
        quarrel with anything that Dr Longerich has written?
   A.   With very many things, yes.  First of all, the figure
        600,000 to 700,000 is completely improper.  I am not
        saying it is not a genuine document, but it is
        characteristic of the gross exaggeration that SS
        in.  There were not 6 or 700,000 Jews in France.
        were a total of 240,000 Jews, of whom about 40,000 had
        already been deported by the time this conference took

.          P-56

        place, so it is an exaggeration by a factor of three
        four.  It is characteristic of what goes on.  We were
        talking yesterday about this bus in Serbia with 90,000
        people or 70,000 people being gassed in the space of
        days.  That would have meant 38 people being gassed
        hour in each bus.  That kind of figure is completely
   Q.   Pause there.  That is the first thing you do not like
        about this, but it is not a criticism of Dr
        account of the document, is it?
   A.   You asked me if I had any comments and you gave a very
        pertinent comment, that this is characteristic of the
        exaggeration which goes on when we come to numbers.
   Q.   I follow that.  That is a criticism of Himmler, not of
   A.   I do have criticisms of Longerich, of course.
   Q.   We will come to those in a moment.  Let us deal with
        thing at a time, otherwise we are going to be shadow
        boxing and I do not like that, Mr Irving.
   A.   You are relying here on the handwritten note.  Of
        Himmler typed up a memorandum in which he used
        words after this.
   Q.   Mr Irving, please do not second guess.  Do not jump
        fences until you get to them, please?
   A.   You asked me for comments, Mr Rampton.  I am sure you
        not like the comments I give you.

.          P-57

   Q.   I asked you for your first comment. I am now going to
        with your first comment, and I am going to deal with
        comments, to use your word, seriatim.  Could Mr Irving
        his Lordship please be given these documents?  This
has a
        marking on it.  The other document your Lordship can
        throw away afterwards.  It is only in case there is
        anything in it which Mr Irving wants to refer to.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where shall we put them?
   MR RAMPTON:  The first one is probably going to go
        into the core file, but it is a Longerich document
        was, until last night, not there.  I now have a copy
        it.  It could, my Lord, at the moment just go perhaps
        the front or back of Longerich, part one, or, as I
        done, hole punched on the other side opposite the
        in the text.  The other two pieces of paper, my Lord,
        which I have stapled together so that it is clear they
        separate are two pages from the Himmler
   A.   From this book?
   Q.   Yes, that is right, by Witte and others, the version
        it.  One reason to give your Lordship the
        extract is that the way in which the words are printed
        the dienstkalender shows that this is a document which
        comes from the Berlin archive and not from the
        discovered Moscow archive?
   A.   I have had this one for a long time.  I have had this
        for 30 years.

.          P-58

   Q.   Yes, exactly.  That is point number one.  Point number
        if one looks at the Himmler manuscript, at the very
        right hand corner, somebody has written 10.12.42.
        Lordship need not look at it, but it is to be noted,
        I expect Mr Irving knows this, that the editors of the
        dienstkalender say that that has been written in by an
        unknown hand?
   A.   It was not on it when I had it because that is not on
   Q.   Exactly, so I am not asking anybody to accept that
that is
        Himmler's dating.
   A.   No, the date is 10th December.  I had a lot of
        trouble -- these are all loose pages in the original
        but, using internal evidence, you can put them back
        the correct sequence.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not let us get into the minutia if we
        not need to be.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  I do not need to know the history.  I
        need to know whether the date ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The figure of 600 to 700,000 Jews is
        challenged as being a wild exaggeration.
   MR RAMPTON:  Against that entry, on the manuscript "Juden
        Frankreich 6-700,000 zunstiger Finde", is the word, is
        not, in Himmler's spidery Gothic, "Abschaffen"?
   A.   Yes, in green crayon actually - "Abschaffen".  Can we
        in your Langenscheit dictionary?

.          P-59

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, because if we are agreed that is what
        says, let us move on.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, will you stop asking me questions, please,
        Mr Irving.
   A.   I am not asking questions.  I am stating that it is
        wrong translation by Longerich.  He said quite happily
         "Abschaffen" means "abolish" which he then by a
        leap says "exterminate".
   Q.   You must give me credit for having had some foresight
        about what you are going to say.  Give us, please,
        version of the word "Abschaffen"?
   A.   Well, why don't we just see what Langenscheidt, the
        dictionary, says?
   Q.   No, tell me what you think it means.
   A.   "Abschaffen" means ----
   Q.   Get rid of?
   A.   Well, I mean, even "get rid of" in this kind of
context is
        difficult, but we are aided by the fact that there is
        another version of this document which you have not
        before the court, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   I have not got it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us do one thing at a time.  What do
        say "Abschaffen" signifies?  Do not worry about the
        translation of it, but what do you say that Himmler
had in
        mind when he wrote "Abschaffen" against the French
   A.   "Remove".

.          P-60

   Q.   "Remove", right.
   A.   It is a neutral word, in other words, my Lord, with no
        kind of -- yes, you have.
   MR RAMPTON:  The root of the word -- I am doing a little
bit of
        etymology myself, Mr Irving, if you will forgive me --
   A.   I thought that was butterfly clothing.
   Q.   --- the root of the word is "create".  So the word
        literally "discreate", does it not?
   A.   I disagree.  "Schaffen" is one of those words like
        It is a word which has any number of different
        like get in, get out, get up, get hot, and so on.  It
is a
        multi-purpose word, a multi-purpose root.
   Q.   You quite like my little schoolboy -- it is not mine,
        is my son's -- Langenscheit, do you not?
   A.   You are going to ambush me, I can sense it.
   Q.   You actually put your head in the noose yourself,
        Mr Irving.  You asked for it literally.  "Abschaffen",
        verb transitive, abolish, discontinue, repeal,
        redress, suppress, do away with, get rid of, give up
        keeping, end of definitions?
   A.   I like the tenth meaning there, "do away with".  But
        are helped, fortunately, as I have mentioned, by the
        that we have a typed version of this document also.
   Q.   And?
   A.   On that it says "Abtransportieren" which means

.          P-61

   Q.   Yes.  That is exactly my point, as you probably
        understood, Mr Irving.  When Himmler is sitting in
        with Hitler, in response to his request for
information or
        instructions what to do with these French Jews, and I
        coming to the number in a moment, these 6 to 700,000
        French Jews, he writes down, not the word
        "Abtransportieren", or whatever it is, he writes down
        word "Abschaffen".
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now, when it comes to the point about what is to go
        the official record and how the orders are to be
        transmitted onwards via Muller, it translates itself
as a
        necessary first step towards extermination, "arrest
   A.   Well, if we leave out the bit about "as a necessary
        step towards deportation", yes, that is absolutely
what it
        says, but the rest was your personal interpolation.
   Q.   Of course, but, you see, Mr Irving, do we find this
        anywhere in your books, this ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- Himmler log entry?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And you ----
   A.   I am the first person to have found it and have used
        if I can keep on making that point.
   Q.   I have not the references so maybe you will tell me

.          P-62

        I will look at them later.  How in those books do you
        translate the word "Abschaffen".
   A.   Bear with me for a moment.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is it, "Hitler's War"?
   A.   It will be in "Hitler's War" in all the editions.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us look at 1991, shall we?  Are you on
   A.   Well, I only have the bound volume of the original

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