Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day006.17
Last-Modified: 2000/08/02

   Q.   You say at the end of the first complete paragraph: "The
        fact remains that in his personal meetings with Hitler,
        the Reichsfuhrer (Himmler) continued to talk only of the
        expulsion (aussiedlung) of the Jews even as late as July
        1944.  When the same generals came to the Obsersalzberg",
        so it is the same audience, you see, Mr Irving.
   A.   Yes, it is the same army course.
   Q.   Yes. "... on May 26th Hitler spoke to them in terms that
        were both more philosophical and less ambiguous.  He spoke
        of the intolerance of nature, he compared Man to the
        smallest bacillus on the planet Earth, he reminded them
        how by expelling the Jews from their privileged positions
        he had opened up those same positions..."
        S" etc..  Did you have the text of what Hitler said before
        you when you wrote that?
   A.   I almost certainly had the original text, the whole text.
        In fact I still had the original text as a shorthand
        record.
   Q.   Do you think expelling the Jews ----
   A.   From their positions as dentists, lawyers and doctors
and
        so on?
   Q.   Do you think from their positions as dentists is a
fair
        translation in its context of these words: In den ich
den
        juden entfernte (?)
   A.   Well, it is an even harder use of the word.
"Entfernte"

.          P-150



        really means "to remove from".
   Q.   That is how Dr Longerich, he has removed the Jewish
        bacillus from the German body, that is what he means,
is
        it not?
   A.   That is not the specific passage that I referred to.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It actually means placed at distance?
   A.   Yes, but obviously Longerich is referring to a
different
        passage.  Mr Rampton was talking about expelling them
from
        their jobs or their positions as doctors and lawyers
and
        so on.
   MR RAMPTON:  When you talk of expulsion in the previous
        paragraph, you put in brackets "aussiedlung"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That was not a word Hitler used, was it?
   A.   Ausseidlung?
   Q.   Yes.  Hitler used the word "entfernte".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is Himmler who is using that word.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, and for your readers you translated
expulsion
        as ausseidlung.
   A.   In the July 1944 note?
   Q.   I am sorry, Mr Irving, it is not an enormous point,
but do
        you see, if you use the word "expulsion" in one
paragraph
        and then translate it into aussiedlung?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Then, in the next paragraph, when are you talking
about
        what Hitler said and you use the same word in its
present

.          P-151



        participle, he is going to think it is the same word,
is
        he not?
   A.   Not necessarily.  You can translate words backwards
and
        forwards two or three times and end up with totally
        different words.  "Aussiedlung" in the July 1944 note
was
        the original word in the original handwriting of
Himmler.
   Q.   Nowhere do I find -- correct me if I am wrong -- in
any
        of your published works at least one natural
explanation
        of this passage in Hitler's speech on 26th May 1944,
which
        is this: "I solved the matter simply in the most
simple
        way I could which is by killing them.  I am sorry that
it
        was not more humane".  You could of course have gone
on to
        say, I am sure that is what he meant to say.  You have
to
        explain away what Himmler had said on the previous
        occasion as well.  But I do not even find that
explanation
        anywhere do I ?
   A.   If you look on page 632, Mr Rampton, at the end of the
        Adolf Hitler speech, May 26th 1944.
   Q.   Yes I see that.
   A.   We have spirited applause at the end of the speech and
        then the two lines as follows.  This is me, David
        Irving. "In Auschwitz"In Auschwitz, the defunct
        paraphernalia of death- idle since late 1943- began to
        clank again as the first trainloads from Hungary
arrived."
        Does this not say everything to you?
   Q.   No, it does not. That is exactly my point.

.          P-152



   A.   After we have listened to these two speeches set out
at
        unusual length, if I may say so, almost the whole page
of
        the book, I then say: For once, I give the reader a
little
        hint as to what cause and effect is.
   Q.   Why does the poor little reader -- in 91 they have
just
        become slave labour at the I G Farben plant but that
is a
        different point.  We will come to that.
   A.   I think this is quite an important point.  This is the
way
        do things when you write books.  You give the
document,
        you give the quote and, in case you think the reader
is
        not going to get the point, you spell it out in one
and a
        half lines.  You say what you are going to say, you
say
        what you say and then you say what you have said.
   Q.   Mr Irving, surely, in a book like this, had you not
been
        set on exculpating Adolf Hitler, you would have said,
        would you not, and evidence, evidence, of what Hitler
was
        referring to by the simple means was killing, is that
in
        July of 1944 or before, in consequence of the fact
that
        the Hungarians had surrendered their 400,000 Jews, by
        order of the high hierarchy in Berlin, Auschwitz
started
        up again?
   A.   Well, how many lines is that?
   Q.   So what?
   A.   You say "so what" but ----
   Q.   You put in what, if I may say so, is a lot of Hitler's
        sludge which you did not need?

.          P-153



   A.   Well, I thought -- this is not Hitler sludge.  This is
a
        pure speech.  I am the first person to find it and you
        will find that when I found something for the first
time,
        I tended to put more than usual in so that other
        historians can have a bite at it too in case they
cannot
        get hold of the original transcript.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I, if you are about to leave that,
        Mr Rampton, just ask ----
   MR RAMPTON:  I am, I am going to go away from that now.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- Mr Irving what the defunct
paraphernalia
        of death at Auschwitz actually were?
   A.   I prefer to leave it like that at that point.
   Q.   No, but I am asking you now, when you wrote that you
must
        have had something in mind.
   A.   When I wrote that, I assumed that they had gas
chambers,
        the whole factory of death paraphernalia, yes, my
Lord.
        You will find that when we get to the 1991 edition,
that
        sentence has been changed.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I follow that.  Thank you.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, I am going to leave that aspect of
        Hitler's knowledge in the spring of '44 and move
backwards
        in time because it is dealt with as a separate topic
in
        Professor Evans.  That is what Mr Irving calls the
        Schlegelberger note.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we spell that for the benefit of the
        transcriber?

.          P-154



   MR RAMPTON:  It is "S C H L E G E B E R G E R".  Before I
come
        on to this and, Mr Irving, I call it the so-called
        Schlegelberger note because, whatever you may think,
we
        and I, that is to say, are by no means certain that
that
        is what it ought to be called.  The reasons for that
will
        emerge in a moment.  But before we start on this
topic,
        you just said about Hitler's May 26th speech that you
do
        not extrapolate "I am inclined to stick more closely
to
        what we find in the record with no quantum leap", yes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Well, bear that in mind, will you, as we look at your
        treatment of this particular document.  My Lord, it
        starts, this exercise, which I am afraid is a little
bit
        tedious, however it must be done, on page 363 of
Professor
        Evans' report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have we got the Schlegelberger note
        somewhere?  Is it worth looking at that or not?
   MR RAMPTON:  It certainly is.  It will be necessary to look
at
        it.  Yes, it will.
   A.   I have the entire file with the original just in case
we
        need it.
   Q.   The best copy, well, there are two copies of it.
There is
        a translation of it at the top of page 364 of
Professor
        Evans.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That will do, I suspect.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, no, it will not, I am afraid, because,
as

.          P-155



        often in these cases, the markings on the note may be
        thought to have some significance.  It is necessary to
        look at the actual note.  That, my Lord, is to be
found in
        two places.  It is in H1 (viii) at page 368, which is
the
        Evans' copy, but it is also to be found on Mr Irving's
web
        site -- in some senses this is a more satisfactory
copy --
        at page 1561 of file D8(iv).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not got that either -- yes, I
have.
        That is better actually.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship might appreciate looking at that
one
        too.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Instead?
   MR RAMPTON:  No both, and maybe put the Evans one away.
That
        is matter for your Lordship entirely.  It is the same
        document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will stick with the one I have got.
Page,
        sorry? I did not catch that in the web site.
   MR RAMPTON:  In the Evans' one, my Lord?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, the web site one.
   MR RAMPTON:  Web site one is 1561.  It is in a box at the
top
        of the page.
   A.   That has the translation with it?
   Q.   Pardon?
   A.   That has the translation with it.
   Q.   It does too.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you got it?

.          P-156



   A.   I have it here.
   MR RAMPTON:  You translate it as meaning:  "Mr Reich
Minister
        Lammers told me, informed me, that the Fuhrer had
        repeatedly declared to him that he wants to hear the
        solution of the Jewish problem has been postponed
until
        after the war is over".  Which are the words which say
        that he wants to hear?
   A.   "Wissen", he wants to know that, he wants to -- I am
        trying to remain, adhere as closely as possible to the
        sense of the document, "wissen volle".
   Q.   I see.  Then you go on:  "That being so, the current
        discussions are of purely theoretical value, Mr Reich
        Minister Lammers' opinion.  He will moreover take
pains to
        ensure that, whatever happens, no fundamental
decisions
        are taken without his knowledge in consequence of a
        surprise briefing by any third party."
                  Now, that document is undated, is it not?
   A.   That is undated, yes.
   Q.   It comes from a file of somewhat miscellaneous
documents,
        does it not?
   A.   Well, it is a Ministry of Justice file headed
"Treatment
        of the Jews".
   Q.   Yes?
   A.   "The Reichs Ministry of Justice", the label on the
jacket
        of the file is [German].
   Q.   My understanding, however, is that this file was one
that

.          P-157



        was used by the Allies or may even have been put
together
        by the Allies; is that right?
   A.   A photocopy of the file was made at the 777 Berlin
        Document Centre, and the photocopies were supplied to
the
        prosecution authorities at Nuremberg, where they were
        handled by Dr Kempner.
   Q.   Can you look -- I do not want to read it out because
it is
        really too boring in a sense -- I wonder if you could
        look, read to yourself, and I would ask your Lordship
to
        do the same, please, paragraphs 4, 5, 6 and 7, the
first
        sentence of 7, perhaps the whole of 7, of Professor
Evans'
        report starting on page 364?  To hear me read it out
would
        drive everybody mad, I am sure.
   A.   Yes, he obviously has problems with it.
   Q.   Well, do you not?
   A.   Not at all.
   Q.   Have you read the whole of that?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just pause a moment.  I am sure Mr Irving
        knows it by heart.  I do not.
   A.   I am rather amused by the problems he has with it.
This
        is one document that just does not fit into the
Holocaust
        historians' repertoire.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  You have been absolutely categorical that this
        document comes from March 1942, have you not, Mr
Irving?
   A.   Yes, the end of March or early April.

.          P-158



   Q.   Do you see on your copy in the web site the name
        "Freisler"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   What do you think of those letters or digits which
appear
        before Mr Freisler's name?
   A.   Staatssekretar, STS, big S, little T -- this is old
German
        handwriting -- [German] handwriting it is called --
        capital S, little T, full stop, S, Staatssekretar.  He
was
        State secretary in the Ministry of Justice.

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