Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.07
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   Yes.  He is suggesting that it is two separate
        conversations.  What he is suggesting, and I think you may
        agree with him, is that it is only the last part of the
        Goebbels diary entry, from the middle of second paragraph
        on page 9, that is in fact a report of the table talk
        because there there is a degree of congruence.  The words
        are not identical but there is a great deal of similarity
        in the subject matter between what Goebbels wrote in that
        short passage and what we find in the table talk on pages
        10 and 11.
   A.   These two records are created in totally different ways,
        of course.  Henry Picker would sit at a side table with a

.          P-55



        note pad, writing down things as they were said on which
        he would then base his subsequent dictation.  Dr
Goebbels
        would wait until the following morning, the first hour
in
        his working day, to summon his stenographer, and he
would
        dictate a diary on the previous days events.
   Q.   But the point might be this, might it not, Mr Irving?
        Dr Goebbels will have recorded a whole day's events,
as
        you say, over many pages.
   A.   Yes, but, if there were two or three separate
        conversations, it is quite possible that he would have
        coalesced them.
   Q.   You see, what I am suggesting is that the first part,
down
        to the middle of the second paragraph on page 9,
        starting "How little the Jews can assimilate
themselves",
        the first part which ends "Therefore, one must
liquidate
        the Jewish danger, cost what it will", I think in
German ,
        "Deshalb, muss man die jedische Gefall-Liquidierung
Koste
        es was es wollen".  That is not table talk.
   A.   I cannot find it.
   Q.   If you want to have a little time?
   A.   No.  I think I can cope with it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, I hesitate to say this and it
is
        my fault.  I am afraid you have lost me.  I am not
        following the point that is being made which is
presumably
        eventually a criticism of 465?
   A.   I will do it more precisely.

.          P-56



   A.   It is a problem that authors frequently have.  When
        material comes in late, you attach far more
significance
        to it than it really deserves.
   MR RAMPTON:  You must leave judgments about significance to
me
        and his Lordship, Mr Irving.  You will make your own,
no
        doubt.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, it is my fault, I am sure,
but I
        am just not quite following what we are on at the
moment.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have tried to take it quickly because this
sort
        of exercise is tedious.  What happens in the end of
course
        is that, if you do it too quickly, it gets into a
muddle.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Fill me in.
   MR RAMPTON:  On page 9 there is a sentence which begins,
"How
        little the Jews can assimilate themselves to Western
        european life in reality can be seen from the fact",
and
        so on, and there is a good deal ----
   A.   Halfway down the second paragraph.
   Q.   Halfway down the second paragraph on page 9.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have that.
   MR RAMPTON:  They get put into a ghetto, they become very
        quickly ghetto-ised again, then there is talk about
        Siberia and then about central Africa.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is reflected in the table talk on page
10,
        starting with the words in the third line "The whole
        prudity of the Jewish people really finds expression"
and

.          P-57



        so on and so forth.  Then there is a reference to the
        ghetto, and then on the next page there is a reference
to
        Siberia, and on the next page the reference to Africa,
and
        probably one can stop there so far as the Goebbels'
diary
        entry is concerned.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That much I follow.  What is the
        significance?
   MR RAMPTON:  The significance is this.  What I am putting
to
        Mr Irving is that the earlier part of the Goebbels'
diary
        entry, certainly down to the end of the first
paragraph on
        page 9, has nothing to do with the table talk at all,
but
        represents a private conversation between Hitler and
        Goebbels.
   A.   Well, that is an adventurous presumption, I think.  If
you
        look at the Weidenfeld edition of the table talk,
there is
        yet again a totally different version of that table
talk,
        and Professor Evans has ignored that completely.
   Q.   I am not worrying about that.
   A.   It worries me.  It should worry.  It should have
worried
        Professor Evans too, the fact that there are three
        different versions of the same thing.
   Q.   Mr Irving, please, can we stick to the point?  If you
read
        the first two paragraphs on pages 8 and 9, what you
see is
        something a very great deal blunter about the fate of
the
        Jews from both sides to the conversation, if it be
        Goebbels and Hitler, than you ever find in the table

.          P-58



        talks.
   A.   (Pause for reading) You mean the argument about the
need
        to keep the equilibrium?
   Q.   And the suggestion, perhaps more than a suggestion,
the
        proposal, that it is probably going to be necessary to
        kill all the people in the prisons as well, because
the
        sentence about the prisoners starts with the little
German
        word "auch".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where are you, Mr Rampton?
   A.  I cannot see any plan to kill people in the prisons.
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 8, my Lord, in indent in small type,
there is
        some talk about the Jews.  "Thus I plead once again
for a
        more radical Jewish policy", this is middle of the
page,
        "whereby I am just pushing at an open door with the
        Fuhrer".  This has been quoted by a number of people
but
        without the context. "The Fuhrer is of the opinion
that
        the danger will become greater for us personally the
more
        critical the war situation becomes.  We find ourselves
in
        a similar situation to that of the second half of 1932
        where bashing and stabbing were the order of the day
and
        one had to take all possible security measures to
escape
        from such a development in one piece.  The
extermination
        of criminals", and there is no ambiguity about this,
"is
        also a necessity of state policy", but the German
sentence
        which you find on page 9, when he goes on to say:
"Auch
        die ausmerzung ist ein stattspolitische
notwendigkeit",

.          P-59



        necessity.  What I am suggesting is that Goebbels and
        Hitler had a fairly frank conversation about the fate
of
        the Jews and indeed of the prisoners but, when you get
to
        the table, the larger audience.  That all goes up into
the
        air into airy talk about central Africa and Siberia.
   A.   May I just comment that to translate "ausmerzung" as
        uniquely as "extermination" is either showing the
        bankruptcy of Professor Evans' vocabulary.  Ausmerzung
has
        a very wide range of meanings.  It is very similar to
        "ausschlossung".  It is rubbing out, wiping out,
        disposing of.
   Q.   You can argue with Professor Evans about that, Mr
Irving.
   A.   I certainly shall.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, am I wrong in thinking, if
this
        is important, I do not know, that the first paragraph
of
        this extract from the diary entry is dealing with the
        particular problem in Berlin and the dilemma whether
you
        keep the Jews there, because they are better working
in
        armaments factory than having in potentially criminal
        elements from the East, or wherever.  Then it seems to
go
        on to the rather wider question what will happen to
people
        in prison if the war situation gets much worse.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that fair?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  What I am suggesting is that the use of
the
        word "also" or "auch" may be tending to suggest that
the

.          P-60



        more radical solution of which Dr Goebbels spoke was
the
        same as that which was going to befall the criminals.
        After all, if it had by this time already been
decided, as
        undoubtedly it had, that the German Jews were going to
be
        deported, and lot of Berlin Jews had already gone by
May
        1942, it could hardly be, could it, Mr Irving, that
Joseph
        Goebbels would have been pleading for a more radical
        policy in that regard?  That is right, is it not?
   A.   I am just totally baffled that you are hanging your
entire
        case on one little German word "auch" and, if I was in
        that position, I think I would deserve to be hanged,
drawn
        and quartered.  You have been bedazzled by this recent
        acquisition rather like a new toy.  You are trying to
make
        something out of it, but I am afraid that it escapes
me
        and I think may very well have escaped the court.
What
        point are you trying to make out of it? What is
        significant in the quotation is that Hitler is saying
once
        again, "There is no point sending them to Siberia
because
        that will just toughen them.  Let us send them to
Africa.
        That is a more reasonable solution."  Once again, he
is
        not talking about killing.
   Q.   In May 1942 send them to Africa?
   A.   I am just repeating what is in the documents.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what the document says.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, it is what the document says but it was
not a
        realistic possibility.

.          P-61



   A.   Hitler was hoping to win the war, I remind you of that
        fact.  He was an optimist.  He was an incurable
optimist.
        People, when they get in that position, hope to win,
the
        same as the defendants in this action.  They do not
        necessarily paint a worse case scenario.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, just so that I try and
understand
        the point that we have been spending a little time on,
and
        looking at it in terms of where you say the
manipulation
        or the distortion occurs in volume 2 of Hitler's War
1991,
        you would criticise Mr Irving's sentence which reads:
"But
        he evidently never discussed these realities with
Hitler".
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, indeed.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is the point, is it?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   A.   I am not going to respond to that, my Lord, because
        I think that that is not a fair conclusion from this
        material.  I think the real allegation is that Mr
Rampton
        would have liked that I ladled acres of sludge into my
        manuscript, rather the way Professor Evans has, which
        would have sunken without trace.
   MR RAMPTON:  There it is.  Now finally on table talks for
the
        moment at least, your favourite one, Mr Irving, which
        I think is 24th July 1942.
   A.   Only favourite because in a sense it brings this
        particular phase to a end.  It is the bottom line.
   Q.   It does what?

.          P-62



   A.   It brings this particular table talk phase to an end
and
        after that there is nothing more useful to be dug out
of
        them one way or another.
   Q.   The relevant part of it is very short, and I do not
know
        whether or not there is any way one can get more out
of
        it, but it is on page 422 of Professor Evans' report.
   A.   Interestingly, yet again, this is a passage which is
in
        the Picker version of the table talk, but not in the
        original Heinich Heim version, so it may well be
something
        that can be attached to that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It may be that Picker was there and Heim
was
        not?
   A.   Heim also wrote a version of the table talk that day,
my
        Lord, in the first person, so it is possible that
Picker
        added to the original from his own notes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Let us look at 466 in your 1991 edition of
        Hitler's War, to start with?
   A.   It is the first paragraph, about lines 6 and 7.
   Q.   "As late as July 24th", this is the last part of the
first
        paragraph, "Hitler was still referring at table to his
        plan to transport the Jews to Madagascar, by now
already
        in British hands, or some other Jewish national home
after
        the war was over."  Yes?  Is that, do you think, a
fair
        rendering of that part of the table talk?
   A.   I am sorry, did you read the table talk?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.

.          P-63



   MR RAMPTON:  I think we are maybe at cross purposes.  That
is a
        fair rendering of the table for that day, is it, what
you
        wrote there?
   A.   The table talk says, "After the war was over, he would
        rigorously take the standpoint", this is Hitler, "that
he
        would smash after city to pieces if the Jews did not
come
        out and emigrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish
        national state".
   Q.   Then it finishes up, I do not know how far down ----
   A.   My reference I can quote "As late as July 24th", this
is
        now me in my book, "Hitler was still referring at
table to
        his plan to transport the Jews to Madagascar by now
        already in British hands or to some other Jewish
national
        home after the war was over".
   Q.   Where in the table talk does the last piece in
evidence
        come?
   A.   Which last piece?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Therefore significant".
   MR RAMPTON:  When it was reported to him that Lithuania was
        also Jew free today, that was, therefore, significant?
   A.   Well, first of all, we do not know what those three
little
        dots stand for in the case of Professor Evans.  Those
        little dots sometimes stand for two or three
paragraphs or
        even pages of text.
   Q.   Of course they can.  Are you not familiar with this
table
        talk?

.          P-64



   A.   I have not got it with me.

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