Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.13 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. Would you accept that the "Bewegung" I am referring to is the revisionist movement? A. I have to read it, otherwise -- here at the top, at the bottom, yes, decide what to do with who is damaging the Bewegung by his antics in his close contacts to the media. Q. And my question is, the word "bewegung" is a reference purely to the revisionist movement? A. Maybe this is true, and by this you are saying what you alluded to a minute ago, that there is a difference between revised history, and in that sense revisionism, and the revisionist movement. . P-118 Q. And the reason I am writing a German word is because Mr Zundel is German, is he not, sometimes you get a better nuance using a German word? A. To be honest, I am not sure what is all is included if you say "bewegung". Q. If it is the revisionist movement then, of course, it is not just Holocaustism, it is about Dresden, about Nuremberg, about Rommel. It is the whole of all the talks I delivered to any of these organizations with the revisionist theme? A. The revisionist theme, revisionist movement means so far I got it especially to revise German history. Q. Yes. A. In a special direction. Q. Yes. Over the page, if you look at the sentence beginning with the words "needless to say" -- A. Where is it, excuse me? Q. -- on page 86. A. 86? Q. A letter I am writing to Ernst Zundel at the beginning of the fourth sentence down "is needless to say"; does that paragraph imply to you that I am determined to keep within the law of whatever country I am in? A. I just have read it, excuse me. Q. Even in private I am warning these people I will not do anything that infringes the law of my host country. . P-119 A. According to the -- where is it stated? Q. Yes. A. Where is it stated, in the middle? Q. The third paragraph on page 86: "Needless to say I have the utmost faith in you. You are a professional. You know the law in both Canada and Germany and keep within it so far as I can judge"? A. Yes. Q. I have respect for the law. A. This is true. You, in this letter you try to, you present, observe the law, right, and you did it often in these kind of letters, yes. Q. And this is not a letter that has been written for window dressing, is it? It is not a self-serving letter in your opinion? A. What is self-serving? Q. Just for the purpose? A. That is difficult to assess, because it is of course for the windows, that is to say for the lawyers and that makes sense. Q. That is your opinion. A. And you ask about my opinion, and on the other hand it make sure of your own purpose. Q. Yes, that I am determined that nobody should even think of doing something that would infringe the law; is that fair? A. The letter shows that. . P-120 Q. Page 90, moving on rapidly, there are references there to a meeting organized for me by a Dr Drayher (?) who was a very prominent member, as you say, of the Christian Democratic Party; is that one of the ruling parties in Germany? A. It was. Q. It was. So he is not an extremist, is he? A. No, as a member of the party, but with respect to his own convictions and visions we have to look, we have to have a closer look on his wording. I did. Q. In other words, he may have had political incorrect thoughts in the privacy of his own home in Germany, which is a problem, is it? A. That is your language. Q. Germany, you agree is a much more sensitive area than the free world like England and the United States? A. Yes, by reason, because of we -- MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have been into this. I have stopped that question twice today. MR IRVING: Well, very well. Page 93, please, paragraph 5.72, here you begin paragraph, quite rightly, by saying: "In an unusual move Irving took the initiative in his own hands in attempting to organise the years' tours"; does that not tell you that as of 1st January 1992 Althans was finished as far as I was concerned? I no longer built on him? . P-121 A. To put it differently you very angry very often about the behaviour of Althans, yes. Q. Yes, page 98, the first paragraph, you quote a newspaper there, The Independent, which says that I spoke in Poland? A. Yes. Q. And you are aware, of course, that I have never been to Poland in my life. So this is the problem we have with sources that we use, is it not? Sources sometimes can be very wrong? A. No, no, I was very cautious, I just said the journalist for The Independent suggested that Irving spoke in Poland instead. Q. Yes. A. That is it. We have to at least put it to the court that there are other, you know, sayings, and I so far I see I have to check it again, that I did not take side with, I did not take side to this. Q. Page 01, please, the first paragraph, several names here, Althans, I am speaking at various meetings; can you see from that paragraph what the topic is? Is it anti-Semitism? Is it the Holocaust, or is it a scientific lecture on the Goebbels diaries which I just retrieved from Moscow, and is it also a talk on the Nuremberg trials? Organized by these extremists, according to the Defence? A. There is a reference to Nuremberg. . P-122 Q. Yes. A. There is a Goebbels reference here, but if you say I believe. The other thing is what you are saying when you were referring to Goebbels, and there we come to another point. Q. Yes, but that is one of the other experts. A. Yes. Q. Page 127, please. A. Yes. Q. The last paragraph beginning "although". A. Would you be so kind just to show it to me, because I put it out, I do not know why. Q. 127. A. No, I have not it here. Q. You are quoting from the Munich City authorities decision to ban me from the German Reich. A. From the what? Q. From the German Reich, this is the ban imposed on me by the Munich City authorities, was it not? A. Yes. Q. The last paragraph beginning with the word "although", I draw your attention to the second and their lines in square brackets. I am going to ask you, you are not implying that I am in any way connected with the terrorists attacks or attacks on foreigners' hostels or anything contained in those square brackets? . P-123 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not see how anyone can possibly think that he was. MR IRVING: If he just says "no" that will resolve the matter. He puts it in his report that "his extremism in its most extreme form"? A. I did not by any means, in any sense of this whole report rely you personally directly to this kind of atrocities. But what has to be -- Q. Relate. A. -- relate, excuse me. But I just quote the decision of the authority and the authorities said, OK, this kind of talking, this kind of -- and I can put it wordly (sic), this kind of rhetoric is in the special moment of our history, in the early 1990s, very dangerous, because of the widespread of this violence, of these thugs in Rostock and where else. They did not use the word "thugs", but you know activists of right-wing extremists and skinheads and others who did this violent attacks against foreigners. Q. Can I put it to you that the fact that a visiting British lecturer is talking to groups about Goebbels diaries or Nuremberg or Dresden is not in the least bit connected with what happened in Rostock and it is very, very far-fetched for anybody to suggest the opposite? A. Yes, of course, but I want to remind you to the Halle, speaking in the surrounding things of Halle. . P-124 Q. Yes. Can I take you now to page 130, paragraph 7.3, the second indented paragraph, beginning: "In the coming weeks", this is the letter that I have written to Mr Wiesal? A. Yes. Q. "Film will be supplied from England to avoid problems with our traditional enemies", namely in Germany. Right? A. Yes. Q. Now to whom do you take the phrase "our traditional enemies" to be referring there? The enemies of free speech? The international Jewish conspiracy or whom, if I can put it like that? My Lord, this has nothing to do with the extremist topic, but it is to do with the meaning of the words "traditional enemies"? A. I mean -- Q. Can it possibly be taken as meaning Jews? A. -- it can be, yes. Q. In what way? A. You did it in the speeches and I -- Q. In this letter? A. -- I do not know. I have to read it carefully. Just a second. Q. The position of the Defence is that I used the phrase "our traditional enemies" as being coterminous with the Jews. A. Again, we should go to this video. This is of special importance, but of course it is not a direct -- what is . P-125 it? Reference. Q. Quite clearly -- A. To a special group, but often it is the case and I cannot say it is the case here, that you are referring to -- Q. -- the reference here is -- A. -- to the international Jewry. Q. -- international authorities or the German postal authorities or somebody like that, is it not? Which is why it has been distributed from England and not from Germany? A. I do not know. I cannot say. Q. But to repeat my question, in this particular case it cannot be a reference to the Jews, can it, the answer is "no"? A. Yes, I think you are right. Q. Yes, thank you. My Lord, we are now coming very briefly to the list at the end, the appendix -- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving I am sorry. MR IRVING: I have done it wrong again, have I? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. You asked several questions about the way in which this film was going to be supplied to Germany. I understand why you did, but you have wholly omitted to ask anything about what Professor Funke says were the contents of this video, which I notice has you saying, and I think you ought it challenge this if you . P-126 disagree with it, that the death factories did not exist. And whoever claims to the contrary puts up a blood lie against the German people. Surely that is the nub of the case that is being made against you in relation to the video; not how you manage it convey it to Germany. MR IRVING: Well, it is two part piece of proof here, my Lord. The reason I asked the questions I just have is to establish in your Lordship's mind firmly the fact that the phrase traditional enemies of the truth, or the traditional enemies did not refer, as Mr Rampton quite properly suggests to your Lordship, that it refers only to the Jewish community. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think he was talking about the use of that phrase in a different context. MR RAMPTON: I do not say it is coterminous, all I say is that it is very often used by Mr Irving to indicate something that is apparently called the "international Jewish conspiracy". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but leave that on one side. If you want my view you are plainly not referring to the Jews when you talk of traditional enemies, in that context, but the reason I have intervened is that I am puzzled by your not having tackled Professor Funke -- MR IRVING: The particular sentence -- MR JUSTICE GRAY: -- About what you are said to have said in the video. I do not know whether you did or you did not . P-127 because I have not seen the video but that he is what he is claiming in paragraph 7.7. MR IRVING: The sting of that particular sentence but the death factories did not exist. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, well, I mean if you not challenging it, fine.
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