Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.11 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. It is not impossible, of course, that these skinheads have been bribed to come along and shout those slogans for the benefit of the newsreel cameras? A. No way, because I looked very exactly to the surrounding conditions and I laid this out before the break, and I could extend it to hours, what this special meeting in . P-94 early November '91 meant, especially for the two levels of the three I mentioned, that is the neo-Nazi reorganizing attempts and the reference and the organizational capacity they want to extend to the violent skinheads scenery in East Germany. Q. Of course, you agree that, if I had no connection with anybody at that Halle function, apart from the invitation from Mrs Worch to come and deliver a five-minute talk, then what the infrastructure may have been is not necessarily something that I will have heard about? A. It is a kind of denying, if I may say so. This whole circumstance, this political revisionist, the like, circumstances, you took side, you cooperated for a period of time with 26, you know, mentioning of the interaction between the Worches and so forth, the Ewald Althans interaction was even more intense, the Karl Philipp interaction. So, if I may draw the attention to the whole picture you will get if you see Mr Irving throughout these years interacting with these groups, and he again and again had to face this, and all the way long he reiterated his quest to speak before these audiences, and was there. So in that sense, I will draw a different picture than this is alluded in the question of Mr Irving. Q. You talk about getting the global picture. Well, today and I suppose now tomorrow as well, we will be getting the global picture, which is everything I was doing at that . P-95 time and not just these one or two episodes that have been selected. Do you agree with that? A. Not everything, oh no. Q. There is a much wider picture. A. I just pinpoint these things that are of importance for the libel act, having extremist views, are you a dangerous Holocaust denier. You know, the Holocaust denier thing is somehow embedded in these political years, and that may cause a judgment to be dangerous, and this is up to of course the court and not to me. But there is something that conflates the two levels of activities -- conflate, coming together. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Converge? A. Converge, excuse me. MR IRVING: Yes. You have picked altogether on, I think we will find we end up with about half a dozen names that mean anything, because most of these people, you will probably agree, I have never met or heard of before. So, if we end up with half a dozen or a dozen names. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is too broad to be answerable. MR IRVING: There is a question that actual follows. That was a comma there. The question now follows. Professor Funke, will you now please have a look at the little bundle of documents I gave you, so we can give it a kind of scale of proportion. A. Is this the bundle J? . P-96 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR IRVING: Yes, it is. Professor Funke, if you just look at pages 4, 5, 6 and 7, I do not want you to read them, just look at the numbers at the top of each of those pages. Will you agree with me that those are the title pages of five of my address lists on my computer, and that they show respectively totals of addresses of 571, 1169, 966, 2000, 158, 1662 records? All told about 6,500 acquaintances that I have, just from these five address lists. You have picked on six or 12 or of that order of magnitude. I have contacts with all of these 6,500 people. That is the global picture. You have picked on just these few. Would you agree that therefore possibly the poisonous extremism which you think you have found in David Irving is possibly diluted when it is dropped into the larger ocean of all these worldwide contacts, many of whom are left wing liberals, for example? A. It is not my duty to judge the 6,000 plus addresses and to look after them. Q. Yes. A. It was my duty to refer to the cause of the libel act, and so far I have to reiterate that the bunch of people we discussed before the break are so decisive in making up a very violent movement, that of course there is a question how far, Mr Irving, if I may say so, you are interacted with them, or not. My judgment is that you were in the . P-97 course of these years. Q. In your opinion, yes. I will be looking at a lot of these names in detail as we go through your report but I am going to ask general questions now. You had complete access to all my private diaries, although I noticed in your report there is a reservation about whether it was complete access or not. You had complete access to all my telephone logs. Did you notice that in my private diaries at the beginning of every year there were pasted lists of people who received Christmas cards from me, or from whom I received Christmas cards, just as one thermometer, so to speak, of personal friendships? Did you notice these lists? A. I saw some of them and, of course, I did not address it because it is not to the interests of the public court I let of course out all the very private things, and this is due to my personal understanding, and I think also to the rules of the court. Q. But, Professor Funke, you would certainly have mentioned in your report if you had noticed that I had received regularly Christmas cards from the Worch family or from your Thomas Dienel, or any one of these other people, you would have mentioned it, would you not, or if I had sent them? It would have indicated a closer degree of intimacy than just being telephoned by these people? A. This question presses me to go in further detail to what . P-98 I realized with respect to both Worch, and again I have to restrict myself, but what I can say definitely and we can have further detailing of that, that there was a very, very intense relationship, cooperation, and what-have- you, between David Irving and Christian and Ursula Worch. This is for sure. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but we were on Christmas cards. You do not need to repeat what you have said already, if I may say so, Professor. MR IRVING: The answer is no, I think, is it not? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think the answer is that if you had discovered there were Christmas cards being exchanged with the Worchs regularly, you probably would have said so? A. I do not know. MR IRVING: Another general question: in the exchanges that passed between myself and the Worchs, is there any element of Holocaust denial or anti-Semitism to your memory? A. Say it again? Q. In the exchanges, the contacts, between myself and Worch, Mrs or Mr Worch, was there any element of Holocaust denial or any element of anti-Semitism? A. I mean, the very fact that Mr & Mr Worch was a key organizer of this very Holocaust denier Congress in Munich is an indication that, yes. Q. Mr Worch was an organizer of the Leuchter Congress, in your opinion? . P-99 A. No, of the first Congress in 21st April '90. Q. On what? A. He was there and he was there again. Q. On what evidence do you base that statement? A. If I may add, he was there again in late March, as you could see just a minute ago. Q. You say he was there, but how many people do you estimate were there Lowenbraukeller in Munich on 21st April 1990, 2,000 people? A. I do not know. It was said that there were 800 or so. Q. So being there is not enough. What evidence do you base your statement that Worch was an organizer of that Congress? A. Because he prepared it together with others. He was - --- Q. What evidence? A. He was responsible for the so-called security thing. I said deliberately that this picture, we are both of these various persons stood together, that is Althans, on the one hand -- he was, of course, the more important -- and Christian Worch, on the other hand, showed something about the degree in which they were interacting by preparation and enacting the Congress. Q. So your statement is based purely on that visual image we have of Althans standing next to ---- A. No, also the references in what you got, I think, of the whole, of the whole letters from you to them and back and . P-100 so forth. Q. I do not want to hold you up, but if you can find evidence that Worch was involved in the organization of the Lowenbraukeller meeting, then perhaps you can present it morning? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, is the Lowenbraukeller meeting --- - MR IRVING: April 21 1990, my Lord. That was the second video that was shown to us today. (To the witness): You estimate there were 800 people in the audience? A. I cannot say. I was not there. Q. And all people that were drawn to our attention, the person you identified as Michael Kuhnen craning his neck, the one without glasses, and Otto Ernst Remer and Manfried Reuder, these are the names of people you picked out, they were all sitting halfway down the audience, were they, or in the middle of the audience? A. I do not know. Q. They were not wearing nameplates or anything? They had no name tags on, did they? A. So far as I saw, no. Q. These may seem silly questions to you, but I have to ask them for obvious reasons. It was the same on the first video that was shown at Hagenau. You identified there Mr Faurisson, Mr Zundel and Mr Worch and somebody you said seemed to be Staglich? A. Yes. . P-101 Q. And do you agree that I was not visible on any of those shots in which those people were visible. Therefore, there is no indication that I was in the room at the time that they were there or when mr Zundel was making his speech? A. Not by this video. Q. Not on this video? A. No, I cannot see because you spoke at the given time and the video is not the last proof if you are at this given moment you were in the room, and there is no way to identify it 100 per cent. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I beg your pardon for interrupting. Are we on the April 1990? A. No, he went back to Hagenau. MR IRVING: This is Hagenau, the first video, my Lord, Hagenau. A. Yes. Q. The people pointed out to us were Mr Faurisson, Mr Zundel, Mr Worch and somebody who "seems to be Staglich". Those are the only comments I have to make on the videos which were, as I understand it, only introduced or accepted for identification, rogues gallery purposes, on this occasion. Unless your Lordship has any questions to ask? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do one, yes, is Worch's first name is Uschi? MR IRVING: "Christian". . P-102 A. There are two Worchs. MR IRVING: And his wife is Ursula. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Who is Uschi? MR IRVING: His wife, Ursula. A. It is a shortening or a kind of nickname of Ursula. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am not sure whether you are putting this, are you suggesting you were not there for the whole of the Halle meeting? MR IRVING: Yes, my Lord. I am suggesting that I arrived two or three minutes before it all began. I got on the back of truck, made my 10 minute brief statement to the young Germans, got back in my car and got out of it as fast as I could being thoroughly aggravated by the whole episode. A. Can I say something to that? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, please. A. You said two or three minutes before you staged your speech?
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