Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.08 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 MR IRVING: My Lord, that photograph is not actually on the stage. It is somewhere in the audience or in the auditorium. A. Excuse me. You are right. He is right. It is not on stage, but it is staged. (The video continued) They are singing the first verse of the national anthem that is, since 45, forbidden. It refers to the Reich in the space of the Reich (German). That is a clear cut ---- THE INTERPRETER: From the river Mars to the River Memel. A. One river is in Belgium. The other river is north to East Prussia. Because of that and the first beginning of this first verse, Deutschland uberalles, Germany above all, the first verse of the national anthem is forbidden since decades, so this is a clear cut attempt to attack it. MR RAMPTON: Do you mean it is forbidden by law? . P-65 A. It is forbidden by law. Q. And has been since 1945? A. Not 1945, but early on in the Federal Republic (The video continued) You see again both, to the left Ewald Althans and on the right Christian Worch. This is, I would interpret, a telling picture of the organizational activities and activists. I think this person -- excuse me -- but I am not totally ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you are not totally sure I do not think ---- A. Not totally sure. This is again Staglich and then the next, it is Karl Philipps, this one, so far. I know but, because I do not know him personally and I have just some photos, I am very cautious, but I think, as this is told in the TV, this is Thomas Heinke, the chief of a skinhead faction, very violent activists group in Beiderfeld, this is in north west Germany. MR JUSTICE GRAY: How do you know it is Heinke? A. It is said by different sources, and by those who did the Michael Schmidt film, who helped to do the Michael Schmidt film, so one of the best experts I had, I must say. (The video continued). MR RAMPTON: Can we stop there please? Do you know what is taking place here? This looks like a march? A. Yes. This is a debated march to the Feltan Halle of the . P-66 21st April Congress, and it was then later on cut by police intervention. MR IRVING: Can I ask you if you ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think you will have your chance, Mr Irving. MR IRVING: It is important we should know if they are marching northwards or southwards, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You mean to or from the conference hall? Do you know the answer to that. MR IRVING: Is that the Vienna Strasse in Munich. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you know whether they are going to the conference or away from it? A. They go away from the conference, but I do not know to what direction, north, south, because I am not familiar with Munich. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Let us get on with this. (The video continued) Here, stop, please. Back a bit, if I may ask that. A. This is again Michael Kuhnen, so you see here both of them. We are talking about twenty minutes or an hour ago, on the one hand David Irving and here Michael Kuhnen. MR IRVING: Can I ask you again, can you recognize whether I was walking northwards up Vienna Strasse from the background there? A. As I said, I am not familiar with---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you will have your chance. Can you just sit patiently. . P-67 A. Here you see the Reichskriegsflagge. MR RAMPTON: You will have to explain Reichskriegsflagge, strictly speaking, because this is an English court. A. Shall I do it now? Q. Yes because we are going to see it again. Pause. Down in the bottom left hand corner of the picture there is a flag with an eagle in it. Right? A. Yes. Right. Q. Yes. It is easy for you now. Reichskriegsflagge is what? A. This is a flag that was used by nationalists before the First World War, and during the Weimer republic, but it is here, you see there Michael Kuhnen, and there the Reichskriegsflagge. Michael Kuhnen, for example, said that we use this flag as long as we cannot use the swastika. Q. Just so that we get it right, a Reichskriegsflagge is a Reichs war flag, is that right? A. Right. Q. Thank you very much. A. You know the German Nationalists, before the National Socialists came to influence in the late 20s, they were very anti-democratic in their own ideas, to a degree anti-Semitic too, and of course, especially before the First World War, very much war mongering. So this is a kind of reference to these kind of ideas. (The video continued). . P-68 MR IRVING: That again does not appear to come from the Dispatches programme, my Lord. There was no commentary of any kind. It appears to have been just glued together from various odd bits and pieces. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is that right? MR RAMPTON: No. I did not do it, but I am bound to say I find these repeated attacks on the integrity of my junior and my solicitors perfectly absurd. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it is attack on anyone's integrity. MR RAMPTON: Of course it is. MR JUSTICE GRAY: If your instructions are, or you are told by Miss Rogers that that does come from Dispatches, for my part, I would accept it straightaway. MR RAMPTON: I am told it is all part of the same occasion and this is what the Professor says. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is all part of the Dispatches programme? That is the point. MR RAMPTON: Is it? Somebody must know the answer. I did not do it. A. I know. Can I say? MR JUSTICE GRAY: You had better wait and see. MR RAMPTON: It is partly from the actual programme and it is partly from what I think are called the rushes, the uncut material taken on the same occasion. If Mr Irving says this is not Munich on 21st April 1990, let him say so. . P-69 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is Dispatches material, but it was but not actually part of the broadcast? MR RAMPTON: It was stuff that was not transmitted, yes. MR IRVING: My Lord, of course, the point I am making is that, if there is cross cutting to indicate there are people over there and I am over there, and there is subsequent, quite clearly from the quality of the film footage, they are taken on different cameras. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, what I have said is that these films are going to be admitted for the purpose of demonstrating, if they do demonstrate it, who was present at meetings at which you spoke or were present yourself. MR IRVING: I am aware of that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that should be the limit of it. Are we finished with Munich? MR RAMPTON: I think we are finished with Munich. I use Mr Irving's words in a minute. There is an aspect of this on which I also rely. It is not simply who else was there, and I have said this before, and what was said by the various people, including Mr Irving, which is obviously important because we are talking about groups of like minded people, it is, to use Mr Irving's phrase, the rabble rousing element of it, which one will see very clearly when one comes to Halle. MR JUSTICE GRAY: When Mr Irving can be seen to be present and involved, yes. . P-70 MR RAMPTON: Rabble rousing. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Otherwise no. I think that must be the distinction. MR RAMPTON: You will see the rabble. When you get to Halle, you will see the skinhead rabble and then you will see Mr Irving standing on a scaffold rousing the rabble. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. MR RAMPTON: This is a film made by Mr Irving himself, I think. It comes from his own video, my Lord, called "Ich komme wieder". It has probably been edited out of existence. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where is this? MR RAMPTON: Passau. This is No. 3, Passau DVU. It is very short. (The video continued) A. This is Gerhard Frey, this person. Q. That is Gerhard Frey. A. Yes, this person in the middle here. Left to the -- no, right from here, right to David Irving, there you see David Irving and on the right you see next to the middle Gerhard Frey, the DVU chief, the chief of the German Volksunion, of the Deutsche Volksunion, the leader. (The video continued) MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is it. MR RAMPTON: That is it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Was that Passau in '87 or? . P-71 MR RAMPTON: Yes? A. No, not in '87. MR RAMPTON: '91? A. In '91. MR RAMPTON: The next one, my Lord, is the long one, the Leuchter Congress. I would like the people in charge of the machine to zip through -- I do not want a whole lot of speeches. A. Yes, I agree. Q. A whole lot of speeches from this group, just to know who they are and get a flavour of the occasion. A. This is Ewald Althans. It is before the museum in Munich. MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the date of this? A. 23rd March '91. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you. MR RAMPTON: Can you pause there a moment? I would like to tell his Lordship or I will ask a question, who made this tape? A. It is shown in the beginning, it is Samisdart(?). This is the name of the Samisdart publisher, Ernst Zundel, in Canada. Q. Zundel? A. Zundel. Q. Commercially made, was it? A. It was -- it was remade for publishing. Q. Yes. . P-72 A. So it was cut and there are written things on it, so if you are interested we can go into details, but... Q. Excuse me, this is a film made by Mr Zundel for his own purposes, professionally made, so it has been cut and edited? A. Exactly. Q. And was it to be sold and distributed to the world at large or whoever wanted it? A. I am not sure if it is only for limited purposes, of limited audiences and publics, I do not know. Q. But the important thing about this is it is Zundel's document? A. Exactly. Q. It was disclosed by Mr Irving and so far -- you have seen it before. A. Yes. Q. The Defendants have not tampered with it? A. The Defendants? Q. Tampered, fiddled? A. No, no, it is just by Zundel. Q. It is an entire Zundel document? A. Right. Q. Thank you very much. A. This is Mrs Von Tonningen. This is a person from the Netherlands, a networker of high skills, very identified with the National Socialist cause. This is the famous . P-73 Ahmed Rami with his very anti-Semitic speech. This is the translator. It is Bouffeur from France who is also active in the revisionist scene. This is another translator, Fritz Becker from Einshaus. Henry Rock, he is a stated, he is an author, a Gerstein expert and editor of the French Zeitschift Review D'histoire Revisionist. MR IRVING: My Lord, can I draw your attention to say that so far we have not seen my face once on the screen yet. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was looking out for you. MR IRVING: Yes. You will recognise me when I come. (The video continued) A. Can I ---- THE INTERPRETER: Since we are playing the sound, would you like a running translation of it? MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think we are not going to do it that way. MR RAMPTON: No. We will get it transcribed and translated in each case. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is the right way. MR RAMPTON: We might have had enough of this. MR IRVING: I was enjoying that! MR RAMPTON: Could we fast forward, please, since we do not know what he is saying? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think, from what I could gather, there was very much that was of any particular materiality . P-74 it is a chronicle of the ---- MR RAMPTON: On this occasion it may be more a question of who else was there. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that is the point, is it not? MR RAMPTON: And what they were saying.
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