Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.06 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. No, Gerhard Frey? A. Gerhard Frey, this not legalized extremist party, then you have the interaction we talked about, the Gunter Deckert of NPD then in the '90s radicalized NPD, and you have the neo-Nazis we spoke about at the beginning. So you have a whole, you know, if you want to centre Irving, you can do so. You know, they are the revisionists, if I may say so, they are the neoNazis, they are the Austrians, not so intense, intense, the DVU Frey, the Deckert NPD, the Althans, the Philipp person as person transmitters and, you know, organizers. Then there is another bunch of people out of the late '70s and early '80s of the then active network of right-wing extremists -- just I could name some of them. Q. We will stay with what we have at the moment because it is already rather indigestible. Could we have a look at that beautiful document? When did you make it? A. In the last days. Q. Yes. I have not seen it before. A. Because to get, you know ---- . P-46 Q. Could I have a look at it because if it looks impressive, we had better have it copied. Mr Irving will see it too in a moment. It is slightly untidy, Professor. A. Yes, I know. My writing is limited to the degree of being very clear, clean. MR IRVING: Perhaps you could wait until we see how many names we can knock off this before he makes the ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not particularly enthusiastic about this. MR RAMPTON: Right. Give the drawing back to the Professor then. I can tell your Lordship this, that there are diary entries in Mr Irving's diary for November 1989 which describe a speaking tour of Spain starting on -- it is a very short one, two days, three days. A. Yes, I recall. Q. Four days. That is not short. I could not speak for four days. Four days starting on November 17th 1989 seems to have been organized by Verala? A. That is what I meant. Q. That is what you meant, yes. A. Thank you. Q. There is also a Rami section, my Lord, in the RWE files in the second one at tab 18. Thank you very much. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have not got a tab 18. I did look for Rami and I ---- MR RAMPTON: He is right at the back. . P-47 MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is not in the index, but at the back. You are quite right. MR RAMPTON: He is not in the index, but he is at the back. There is not an awful lot on him. I think seven entries ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. MR RAMPTON: --- involving Mr Irving. Thank you, Professor, for the moment. We will need your help because I am now going to show these tapes. Miss Rogers, my Lord, before we start looking at the films, has prepared a chronological, not exhaustive, list of Mr Irving's speeches starting in January 1983 and ending in November 1988 upon which your Lordship will find or in which your Lordship will find the three or four that we are going to look at now. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. Where shall we put that? MR RAMPTON: In front of RWE1, I should have thought. One for the witness, I think. Who is going to control this -- -- MR IRVING: This is not an exhaustive list of speeches, is it? MR RAMPTON: No, I said it was not. MR IRVING: It is a very selective list. I mean, in some years I spoke 190 times in one year. MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. When Mr Irving is speaking to the East Grinstead RSPCA I have not put in a ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is selective. . P-48 MR RAMPTON: It is selective indeed. I would like to show the tapes. Where are the tapes, is the first question? I think, my Lord, the safest way of dealing with this, if I may suggest it, is if Miss Rogers is allowed to stand up there, do you mind doing that, and with help stop it at the right places. MR IRVING: My Lord, when it comes to the speech upon Halle, I would to like to know whether it is the raw, uncut footage they are going to show. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we pause before Halle? Is Halle the last one? I have the impression it was. MR RAMPTON: Yes, Halle is the last one. I cannot answer Mr Irving's question on that, I am afraid, I just do not know. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but he can make his objection to it then. Is there a transcript of Halle? MR RAMPTON: There is not a transcript of any of them. A. But it is a disclosure of -- he is on the website. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but I would like to see the transcript all the same. I suspect in the end, Mr Irving, I am probably going to have to see it and then form a view about your objections, if there is no transcript. MR IRVING: Precisely. Your Lordship will be familiar from the inter partes correspondence that there was a major dispute about the Halle tape. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I am not conscious of that at all. . P-49 MR IRVING: It was concealed from me in discovery and I had to conduct several interlocutory actions under the rules of discovery to force the -- it was accidently discovered to me, the raw tapes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, you got it in the end. MR IRVING: And we had a lot of trouble over it. MR RAMPTON: My Lord, may I sit while this is going on. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course, please. A. This is in Hagenau, if I may say. MR RAMPTON: It seems to be a still. (The video tape was played) MR RAMPTON: Can we stop there, please? Who is that speaking in the middle? A. This person to the left -- maybe David Irving can help us. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am not sure that is quite the way to conduct this. MR IRVING: I would be happy to assist if I recognize him. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I will not ask you to, let us just see what the witness can say. MR IRVING: It is not Valendi, as far as I know. A. I am not sure. That is why -- but I heard that he organized the debate. MR RAMPTON: Who is the one in the middle with the stripy tie? A. Now, in the back not seeing is Ernst Zundel, to the right it is Faurisson. Q. So it is Faurisson -- can we just go back a couple of . P-50 frames? A. This is Ernst Zundel in the back. Q. Yes, I see. That is Faurisson on the right with the stripe with the white shirt, is it? A. On the right side. Q. Thank you. (The video continued to be played) A. "I would have given a gift to him when I realized that he was here". That is the gist. "So this devil lie that this Juden pack that the Jews gave to us Germans". That is a reference to the so-called Holocaust lie. This was a last sentence. MR IRVING: I was not aware we were going to be shown edited gobbets like this. We have no idea what that little piece or snatch of conversation was, whether he was quoting from a book or quoting from something that was said or what. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think he is was quoting from a book. I think, Mr Irving, I understand your concern but ---- MR IRVING: If we are just looking at a rogues gallery, that is perfectly proper use of this footage. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think in the end what is going to have to happen is that I see all this material because it is impossible for me to form a view because I do not know what is coming next. We have not seen you at all but I know you were there, so I expect we are going to see you. . P-51 MR IRVING: Well, we do not know if I am actually there at the time these people were there or whether they are saying that or not. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us wait and see when you feature. MR IRVING: It has been heavily edited there, of course. A. There to the back, if I may say so, this is the person in the middle now, Christian Worch. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The young one? A. The young one, right, in the middle, right in the middle. This was just a second back, if I may ask you -- now go further -- this person, so far I can identify him, of course it is with limits, as you can imagine, on the right side, seems to be Staglich. MR RAMPTON: With his head by the window? A. Yes. Q. Stop there, please. What is Mr Irving talking about in that extract? A. You know the reference is he is referring to the alleged excesses of eyewitnesses with respect to the Holocaust experience. Q. Pause please. A. And then ---- Q. No, pause. When you said "excesses", do you mean that there are more survivors than there should be? MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think exaggerations I think is the sense. . P-52 MR RAMPTON: Exaggerations, that is why I interrupted you. A. Yes, and with this he very cynically, I would say, says OK, "There was one, there was just one", that is the gist of it, so far as I read it. Maybe there can be more correct translations of these wordings. "There is one man gas chamber there, you know, a kind of Sedan chair and soldiers carried that around the landscape and then, like a telephone cell, you have a ring and the soldier says, 'OK, it is for you, Jew'". So this is the gist of it so far I read it but ---- MR IRVING: Excuse me. A. --- of course Mr Irving said it so he may ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just pause. A. --- translate it more precisely. MR IRVING: The word was not "excuse you", "it is for you, Jew". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, we are going to get into a frightful tangle if we are going to go through the films having simultaneous translations. MR RAMPTON: No, no, not simultaneous translations, but it would be a false exercise on my part if Mr Irving were talking about the wild flowers in Alsace at that point. One has to know what the gist of these meetings were about ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I quite agree. No, I am just thinking it is better ---- . P-53 MR RAMPTON: --- for them to have any point at all. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Don't let us all talk at once it would be better if we had a translation. MR RAMPTON: It would be much better if we had a translation. Before we close the case we will get translations and transcripts, I expect. I will do my very best, but at the moment, I am sorry, we do not have them. THE INTERPRETER: It is easy to translate phrase by phrase, this passage. MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, I cannot hear. THE INTERPRETER: It is easy to translate this passage phrase by phrase. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That will take a very long time. MR RAMPTON: Don't let us do that now. MR IRVING: The other point I would ask in cross- examination of this particular passage is that we have seen me speaking, we have heard me speaking and now we see instantly picture cross-cuts to a laughing audience, and we have no way of knowing, for they have only got one camera there, and it is done by clever editing. We do not know what they are laughing at. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I understand that point. Whether it is a good one or not, I am not so sure, but I understand the point you are making. MR IRVING: It is the editing point again, my Lord. Your Lordship would not allow the introduction of an edited . P-54 document in which bits have been put in and bits have been taken out. This is a document. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I entirely understand the point. Mr Rampton, can you tell me this, and I should have asked before you started playing it, who actually made this film? ---- A. That was done by those who organized the conference. MR RAMPTON: I see. A. It was then given to Michael Schmidt. Michael Schmidt was the person who was in this revisionist and the other scene for quite a period of time, and then had four days of videos. He was given this video by one of the main organizers, so far as I recall, and by Ernst Zundel himself. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right, let us carry on. MR RAMPTON: I just want to chase that up. Did Schmidt then make a documentary film using this material? A. Yes, he did so, but the basic clips, of whatever he had of ours, of course, documented by the documenter of this conference, so we have again a problem of documents. Q. So far as we can tell, that is original film of the meeting at which we saw Mr Irving. A. Organized by themselves.
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