Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.05 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. Can you tell me what sort of information they exchanged on the website? A. I have to say only to a limit because it is so much to read, if I see the web sites of David Irving that I restrict myself, but to a degree he refers to the court things Deckert was in because of the event in Weinheim. Deckert got debated imprisonment by doing this event in early, in the early '90s, I think in '91. So David Irving is repeatedly referring to this kind of aftermath of this event. MR IRVING: It is actually an appeal for funds for the family of Deckert, is it not, while he is in prison? A. Excuse me? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think we had better just leave it to you to cross-examine later. It seems that Deckert is somebody you were in fairly regular contact with. MR IRVING: No problem with that one at all. MR RAMPTON: Well, then is this no problem about the contact? Can we know something about Herr Deckert himself and his views, please? A. Deckert is one of those who is very near to the hardcore revisionists and he got the NPD Chair in '91 to '95, and he was one of the persons who radicalized in this period of radicalization of right-wing extremist movements in . P-37 Germany because of the scenery, especially in East Germany, he radicalized the NPD. This is, if I may say so, out of the perspective of a social scientist, a very interesting, you know, change at that period of time, because that means in the following years that the interaction between the neo-Nazis and the NPD grew. And finally after all this neo-Nazi -- no, after a bunch of these neo-Nazi groups were banned by the German authorities in '92 and '93 and '94 and '95, the NPD was the so-called still formally legal but ultra right-wing extremist party who took over, and organized this little tiny neo-Nazi groups to a degree in their camp. So we have the interesting thing, just to finish it with one sentence, that at the end of the century we had a kind of joining efforts of the Christian Worch camp on the one hand and the NPD camp on the other conflating in the demonstration of 29th January through the Bahnhof Gate against the attempt of a memorial. MR IRVING: What year was that? 29th January what year? A. 2000, just to give a kind of overview how this conflation took place. MR RAMPTON: Good. I have only three others on my list at the moment. We may have to ask further questions when we look at the tapes, Professor. A man called Thies Christophersen, tell us about him. Tell us, first, whether he has been associated with Mr Irving, will you? . P-38 A. Very much so because Thies Christophersen is one of the networkers who is on the very radical side of the clear cut Holocaust denier. He has some resonance in these groups by having been in Auschwitz as a kind of lower officer in the kind of garden area near to the camps. So he pretend to know all about Auschwitz, and he wrote one of these famous books "Die Auschwitz-Luge", "The Auschwitz Lie". So he organized that he was very sharp in presenting his case. So he was caught, he was attacked by the judicial authorities, so he had to leave Germany. He resided in -- he lived in Kolant in Denmark for a period of time and, to make it very clear, he is one of those who combined this radical revisionists with the neo-Nazis. Q. Right, so, in other words, he makes a bridge or link? A. Yes, he is one of the bridges the linkers. Q. The neo-Nazis on the one side? A. Yes. Q. And the Holocaust deniers on the other? A. Yes. So he was also responsible for this Hagenau meeting to a degree and the revisionists' meetings at that time. He died then in the '90s. Q. Yes, when we look at the Hagenau meeting which is the first one we will look at, it is quite short, that was organized by Christophersen, is that right? A. So far I recall, yes. . P-39 Q. And I think we are going to see, but you will tell us whether we are right, Arthur Butts? A. We do not see him, but it is said that, according to the sources, that he is there. Q. OK, yes. Christian Worch whom you can identify? A. Yes. Q. Karl Philipp you think? A. I think. The sources says it, but we cannot see him in that meeting. I think we will see him in another meeting. Q. Right. Wilhelm Staglich? A. So far as I recall, he could -- you could see him. Q. If Worch and Staglich are both there, then, on the one hand, you have a neo-Nazi Worch and, on the other hand, you have a denier in Staglich? A. Yes, this is a very interesting point, that you have a kind interaction to say the minimum between this kind of revisionists and this kind of neoNazis, that has, of course, something to do with the ideas behind. So there was a conflation. And to say in one sentence more about that, especially in Germany and Austria, if in any sense neo-Nazis can get some success, political success, they have to do as the first thing to by any means try to rehabilitate National Socialism as far as it is possible. This is the crucial point. By denying, by relativizing, by blaming the Jews as those who made it up or who did it or who let it do, so by all various kinds of rhetorics, . P-40 agitations, to downplay this Nazi period, to restore, you know, the kind of proud of the extreme Aryan racist anti-Semitic nation. This is the bottom line of it. So they conflate one and again, once and again. Q. Do I understand what you have just said to involve, I hope you do not mind a little piece of colloquial English, that you are telling us that your familiarity with neo-Nazi and denialist publications, utterances, speeches, and so on and so forth, one of their themes is that the Jews had it coming to them and brought it on themselves? A. Yes, this is one of the most, if I may say personally, most striking things, that it is said that in the course of centuries or, to quote David Irving, of 3,000 years in one of his quotations, the Jews are responsible because they are disliked. Whether -- and the direction is that the Jews are the reasons for being disliked because of their various behaviour, alleged behaviours, and so they are responsible, they are so to speak ---- THE INTERPRETER: They carry part of the guilt. MR RAMPTON: Sorry? A. They carry part of the guilt or the whole guilt that they were murdered, and in a quite illogical, irrational way, this is then changed by saying, "OK, but the Holocaust did not happen, at least not to the degree" so you have a double ---- Q. One might ---- . P-41 A. --- double standard ---- Q. Yes. A. --- double meaning, a kind of controversial in itself, but this can only be solved by the distance and even hatred against the Jews in that camp. Q. Can I stick with what I was on? We have seen the passage and other passages from Mr Irving's utterances that you speak of, my question is this. Is that thought, really it is all the Jews' own fault, if it did happen, which it did not, they deserved it or they brought it on themselves", is that a common theme amongst the denialist and neo- Nazi publications with which you are familiar in Germany? A. It comes always to the fore. If you see Hagenau, you see all of a sudden Mr Zundel rousing his voice and saying, "This Juden pack". Q. What does that mean? A. I do not know. THE INTERPRETER: "Pack of Jews". MR JUSTICE GRAY: A pack. MR RAMPTON: A pack of Jews? A. It is a very negative connotation. MR RAMPTON: What, as though the were dogs or something? A. It is a kind of bunch of people who are doing this dirty, ugly thing. It is a kind of slogan we know in Germany, "Juden pack", these people who are doing this bad things. THE INTERPRETER: "Pack" meaning low people with low . P-42 intentions. A. So just a representation of aggression, of very aggression and humiliating the Jews. MR RAMPTON: This is the famous Ernst Zundel from Canada, is it? A. Right. MR RAMPTON: Goodness me! MR IRVING: There is no suggestion that I had used words like that. MR RAMPTON: There is a suggestion that Mr Irving was at this meeting and made a speech, is there not, to this audience? A. Yes. Q. People like Mr Zundel? MR JUSTICE GRAY: At Hagenau, yes. A. Maybe he did not hear him, but he was there. MR RAMPTON: Yes. Hagenau is in Alsace, is it not? It is in France? A. Yes, in Alsace. Q. Then two others, finally, who are not on my list -- there may be others when we look at the tape -- Professor, one is a Spanish man, I think, called Pedro Verala, who is he? A. It is again one of the -- you know, he is the successor of a bunch of neo-Nazis who fled to Spain because, as you may know, the Franco Spain was a kind of resort area for National Socialists. Q. Yes. He is what? He is a neo-Nazi or revisionist? What . P-43 is he? A. Both. Q. Both. Finally, then, a somewhat curious figure amongst all these Aryans, somebody Ahmed Rami. Who is he? A. He is a wide anti-Semite, to say the minimum. Q. Where does he come from? A. Stockholm, but original descent from Morocco. He is talking in the second Leuchter Congress, you will see it if you decide to. Q. He speaks in French? A. He speaks in French. He is always talking about the Zionist Mafia who lead the world and this kind of, 20 minutes in this video, so you will see how long you will view it. Q. Do you propose any further connection between Mr Irving and -- I have lost his name? MR JUSTICE GRAY: The Spaniard. MR RAMPTON: Verala and Rami, other than that they appeared at this meeting in Munich together on 21st? A. So far as I know, but I have to check again in various revisionists meetings -- no, excuse me, no. David Irving was invited by this camp in Spain and spoke. Q. Oh, really? Do you know when? A. Excuse me? Q. When? A. In that same, I have lost it, I have to check it, but in . P-44 the late 80s, early 90s. I read the diaries from 1989 to '93 and there he was in Spain. But it must have been quite successful, but I have to recall when it was. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Invited by? A. Give me a minute, so I will say to you in a minute. Q. Invited by Verala, is that what you are saying? A. Yes, so they know each other. You know, it is a little tiny group who interacted between each other on various levels and various levels of intensity, so sometimes I get mixed up but not on the basic things. MR RAMPTON: Looking at the whole spread of material, Professor, looking at the whole spread of material which you have been through in detail, so far as Mr Irving's connections with these various people and groups are concerned, how deep would you say that his involvement in these affairs is? A. I think very -- he was involved very much in this whole affairs. Not to get mixed up, I did a show picture to see this ---- THE INTERPRETER: A graph. A. --- a graph to represent this interactions, and you have, you know, the whole bench of revisionists from Tony Hancock, Peter Verala, Staglich, Valendi, Otto Ernst Remer, Ahmed Rami, Zundel, Zundel as one of the main persons, together with Christophersen and Mark Rebo of IHR in California, on the one hand, then you have an . P-45 interconnecting person, Karl Philipp, then you have, on the other hand, the Althans group and the person himself especially, and then you have some Austrians, by the way, very famous right-wing extremists, like Rephandel in Skrinski, who are known to David Irving, then you have the DVU connection we did not talk about in the '80s.
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