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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.04


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.04
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   Has Worch spoken on the same occasions?
   A.   It is several times the case.  For example, at the second
        so-called Leuchter Congress at the 23rd March '91 and
        again at the 9th November '91, and so far, yes, these are

.          P-27


        occasions.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   They planned to invite Mr Irving to the Wansiedel
        meeting.  This is very important for this scene.  The
        Wansiedel meetings every year in August, remembers the
        death of the hero in that circle, Rudolf Hess.  Mr
Irving
        did not come to the Wansiedel meeting because he did
not
        want, as the diary shows, to take sides openly with
        Michael Kuhnen, but, as we see, he did with the other
        person.  This is Christian Worch.
   MR IRVING:  Would the witness just explain what he means by
        taking sides with Michael Kuhnen?
   A.   So far I recall your diary, but you know it better.
   MR IRVING:  May I put it to the witness that in fact I made
it
        quite plain I would not attend if Kuhnen was going to
be
        there.
   A.   Right.  Taking sides.  But, you know, if I may add --
no,
        I should not.  I see.  Go on.
   MR RAMPTON:  Who is Rudiger Hess?
   A.   He is one of the activists in the scene and the son of
        Rudolf Hess.
   Q.   Can you turn to the entry in the summary for 22nd
April
        1990 please?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Mr Irving's diary records that he had breakfast on the
        morning after the Wahrheitnachtfrei in Munich with

.          P-28



        Staglich, Hancock and the Worches.  Who is Wilhelm
        Staglich?
   A.   Wilhem Staglich is a former judge, and is very active
in
        these revisionists circles, quite a while, a very old
        man.  I think he died in the middle of the 90s.
   Q.   Does revisionism in that sense include any element of
        Holocaust denial?
   A.   It is often the case, and with him it is.
   Q.   With him it is?  I am going to ask you some other
names
        now.  I am going to go backwards through this summary
that
        you have produced.  Who is Udo Walendy?
   A.   I think he is one of the most outspoken persons in the
        Holocaust denial network and activities.  He did and
he is
        doing a magazine.  I have some copies of that in my
hotel,
        so I can show it if it is necessary.  He presented to
the
        German audience the Arthur Butz Holocaust denial
attempt.
   Q.   "Hoax of the 20th century"?
   A.   Right, in the 70s.  I am not quite sure, the sources
say
        that he attended Hagenau, this revisionist meeting in
        November 89.
   Q.   We are going to have a look at that.
   A.   So he is the most, if I may say so, outspoken and
        differentiated in trying to make this cause.
   Q.   Do you know whether Mr Irving has been associated with
        Staglich or Walendy?
   A.   Yes, they met in their circles of course, in their

.          P-29



        revisionists meetings.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  How do you know that?
   A.   By the sources, with respect to this both persons, but
        I have to look them up because it is such a bunch of
        people who are interacting, interconnecting, meeting
        networking and so forth.  So forgive me that I have to
        look it up.
   MR RAMPTON:  Well we will see Staglich in some of the films
and
        perhaps Walendy, and we can see already that Mr Irving
has
        had breakfast with Wilhelm Staglich on 22nd April
1990.
        We get that from his own diary, do we not?
   A.   Yes.
   MR IRVING:  That is the only entry in the diary which
mentions
        it, is it not?
   A.   He was there around, you know.  He was there often
        around.  This is the entry mentioning, but, as you
know,
        on the day before he was there too, and you too.
   MR IRVING:  In the audience.
   A.   In the audience, but you know the audience, and you
know
        Mr Staglich, I think.
   MR RAMPTON:  What about somebody called Michael Swierczek?
   A.   Maybe I should spell it for the court?
   Q.   No?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it might be helpful because
sometimes
        the transcriber cannot really cross refer.  That is
the
        problem?

.          P-30



   A.   Go ahead.
   MR RAMPTON:  S W I E R C Z E K.  Yes?  Good.  Who is he?
   A.   He belongs to this first mentioned Kuhnen crew, or
        Gesinnungsgemeinschaft, and he organized an own little
        tiny group more in the south to make this neo-Nazi
cause
        along the lines of Michael Kuhnen, the National
Offensive
        NO, and Swierczek invited David Irving, so far I
recall,
        in '91.  The success of these events were modest.
   Q.   Thank you.
   MR IRVING:  Did you say events or event?
   A.   There were two invitations,  So far as the diaries and
        your sources says, and they were both, if I recall, in
the
        effect of selling books and presenting to a bigger
        audience.
   MR RAMPTON:  I have not asked about the policies and
ideologies
        individually of each of these individuals.  You said
there
        is an element of Holocaust denial in many of them, of
the
        heirs of Michael Kuhnen, you said there was anti-
Semitism
        xenophobia.  Yes?
   A.   Yes, very much so.
   Q.   Is this true of somebody like Swierczek?
   A.   Yes.  In this whole neo-Nazi camp they are only little
        differentiations because they have to stick to their
card
        organizations.
   Q.   Let me ask you a general question then.  Do any of
these
        neo-Nazi individuals, or groups of individuals, have a

.          P-31



        policy which is Nazi, but not anti-Semitic and
        anti-foreigner?
   A.   I have to be very modest in answering this.  I did not
see
        any hint of this Kuhnen crew, the
Gesinnungsgemeinschaft,
        that they distanced from that kind of rhetoric,
agitation,
        ideology, world view.  No, not any person of this
        I mentioned, not any person in any situation, so far I
got
        the datas, so it is a clear cut thing.  They are
joining a
        kind of same world view.
   Q.   I cannot remember whether we have dealt with Karl
Philipp
        or not?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, we have.
   MR RAMPTON:  Good.  I will pass backwards over him.  Do you
        know who Ditlieb Felderer is?
   A.   Just a bit.  He is a Swedish joiner of this
revisionist
        camp, and also politically very active.
   Q.   I think we are going to see him in one or other of
these
        tapes, are we not?  What about somebody called Thomas
        Dienel?
   A.   Thomas Dienel is one of the outspoken neo-Nazis in
East
        Germany, so he is one of the East Germans who took
this
        cause after '89.  He changed his views and parties,
but he
        was one of the most crude or crudest anti-Semites.
   Q.   Is it true that in July 1992 a Jewish leader called
Heinz
        Galinski died?
   A.   Yes.

.          P-32



   Q.   And what was the reaction of Dienel and his friends to
        that?
   A.   They made bad, very cynical, jokes on that.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I think it should be properly stated
        whether any allegation is made that I have ever met
this
        Mr Dienel, who is obviously an extremely unsavoury
        character.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am trying to keep a track of the extent
to
        which ----
   MR RAMPTON:  That is always going to be my next question.
        I just want to get a picture of this nice Mr Dienel
first.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Before we paint a picture of him, he is
not
        one of those who has a section in RWE one or two?
   MR RAMPTON:  No, he does not.  The reason I mentioned him
is
        partly that he is mentioned in this biography section
in
        the appendix, and one can read for oneself.
   A.   Yes. I may just allude to Thomas Dienel, he is of some
        importance, if I may say so, your Lordship.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you start though, by explaining, if
        may say so, Mr Rampton, what the connection with Mr
Irving
        is.
   MR IRVING:  Thank you.
   A.   Yes, of course.  The connection is very simple and
maybe
        very short.  He was the inviter, together with
Christian
        Worch, of the 9th November Halle meeting.
   MR IRVING:  Never heard of him in my life before.

.          P-33



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You will get your chance, Mr Irving.  We
must
        not make this too conversational.
   A.   You heard him.  He spoke before you spoke.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor, can we keep some sort of form
to
        this?  We have a system here.  It is Mr Rampton
        questioning at the moment, so do not start
conversations
        with Mr Irving.
   A.   Excuse me.  Maybe I should add something to Thomas
        Dienel?  Excuse me.  I rely on your questions.
   MR IRVING:  I am sorry, I interrupted.  Perhaps we ought to
        carry on.
   MR RAMPTON:  We can read on page 142 of the appendix what
sort
        of a man Thomas Dienel is on your account.  Is he one
of
        those that we shall see on the film of the rally at
Halle?
   A.   Yes, I alluded to that just before.  He was the one of
the
        organisers of the Halle rally, together with Christian
        Worch.  It was a joint action and at that time, to my
best
        knowledge, he was a member of the NPD, the National
        Democratic Party of Germany, so they did a joint
effort,
        the neo-Nazis and this ultra right-wing extremist NPD.
        But then Thomas Dienel changed and organized a new
clear
        cut neo-Nazi group, the DNP.  It is maybe not of such
an
        interest, but the point is that he was one of them at
that
        period of time, the most outspoken crude anti-Semites.
        He, after the death of the famous Jewish
representative
        Heinz Galinski, by the way, survivor of Auschwitz, who
in

.          P-34



        a way never could escape the memory of Auschwitz, if I
may
        say so.  I knew him very well.  An effort at that city
        where he stayed, Thomas Dienel, he took part in an
action
        at the 20th July '92, following the death of this
leader,
        Heinz Galinski, of the Jewish communities, pigs' heads
        were thrown to the garden of the Jewish community with
        labels that read "Every pig dies, you too Heinz".
That
        means Heinz Galinski.  In '92, Dienel was found saying
        unfortunately the younger generation has not yet
killed
        any Jews.
   Q.   What age of man is this Thomas Dienel?
   A.   He is in the 40s, I think.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am still, if I may say so, unsure on
what
        basis you are suggesting, Professor, that there is a
        connection between ----
   A.   I did not say connection.
   Q.   Well, you said, I think, that Dienel, together with
the
        Worches, was responsible for inviting Irving to speak
at
        the Halle rally?
   A.   Yes.  Then I said you can call it connection.  It is a
        connection for that given invitation and action.
   Q.   But why do you say Dienel was involved in inviting
Irving
        to speak?  Where do you get that from?
   A.   No.  It is more precise.  The demonstration in Halle,
the
        Halle rally was organized and the invitation came from
two
        persons, or two groups represented by these two
persons.

.          P-35



        This is Thomas Dienel, the then NPD speaker, it is
very
        public, and on the other hand by Christian Worch.  The
        diary shows in that sense, I realize the surprise of
David
        Irving just a minute ago, that he was invited by
Ursula
        Worch ----
   Q.   That is what I was getting at.
   A.   -- To come to this rally.  So it was a kind of
conflation
        of invitations, and by this he was in the scene.  You
know
        that David Irving is a very good understander of
German
        language.  So he knew him by hearing him, by
participating
        at that demonstration and at a very prominent level.
That
        is what I am saying, not more, and I did not do
anything
        more in the report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  I am indebted to your Lordship for asking that
        question.
   MR RAMPTON:  We go now to man called Gunter Deckert.
Before
        I ask you about Gunter Deckert, do you know of any
        connection between Mr Irving and Herr Deckert?
   A.   By his website.
   Q.   How do you mean?  That, to me, is a slightly Delphic
        explanation.
   A.   They have a long interaction by communicating and
        referring to each other.  He, Deckert, invited David
        Irving to speak in Weinheim at a given period of time,
the
        early '90s, I think, in '90.  So there was a clear cut

.          P-36



        each other knowledge of what they have stood for and
that
        they stand for.

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