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Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So that is the second one?

    A.   That is the second one.  That is, of course, a sentence
          omitted by Mr Irving.  He writes about this.  Thirdly,
         633, Wilhelm von Bruckner:  "Hitler never talked in my
         presence about the so-called Final Solution of the 'Jewish
         question' or 'extermination of the Jews'.  This applied
         equally to the whole of Hitler's entourage".  Then
         Bruchner added:  "These questions were probably left to
         the close and competent circle, to which Dietrich", again
         talking about him, "did not belong".  That is another one

                                 .          130

          who says that they -- in other words, it was discussed,
          not just by Hitler, Hitler did know about it in other words.

     MR IRVING:  Can I draw your attention to page 634, please,
          paragraph 2?  You state that I did not provide the
          statements by the stenographers Buchholz, Jonuschat,
          Krieger, Reynitz and Thot.  Is that not precisely the file
          of which I have just drawn your attention in the bundle
          this morning, at page 36, the written statement of
         Hitler's stenographers, that that was, therefore, in the
         Institute and available to you and your researchers?

    A.   Yes.  I am just saying that you did not provide it to the
         court before this morning.  That is all.

    Q.   Did not do what?

    A.   Provide it to the court before this morning.

    Q.   Are you aware that that list is in my discovery as a
         numbered item in my discovery?

    A.   Are the actual statements there?

     Q.   The actual statements are in the Institute of History
         where they have been ----

    A.   So they are not in the discovery?  That is all I am saying.

    Q.   Well, I think his Lordship has the point.  Next name?

    A.   636, this is Krieger, one of the stenographers.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Krieger, yes, I see.

    A.   Yes.

                                 .          131

     MR IRVING:  Ludovic Krieger.

     A.   Who as a sort of a "don't know":  "It remains a problem"
           -- it is rather awkward English -- "It remains a problem
          first unsolved whether Hitler himself issued the orders of
          such cruelties or authorised men as Himmler or Bormann to
          do so or whether generally held orders were carried out by
          subordinate organs and sadists in such a brutal and vile
          manner" which is somehow rewritten on a different version
          which is used by Mr Irving where he says:  "For the
         present it must remain an unanswered question, whether
         Hitler himself issued specific orders ... or whether
         orders issued in generalised terms were executed by
         subordinates and sadists".

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Whose translation is the first one?

    A.   That is, I think, it looks like it is originally -- it is
         such peculiar English, it looks like it was originally
         written in English actually.  Anyway, he keeps it open.
         He says it is certainly possible that Hitler issued the orders.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is page 636?

    A.   Yes.  And then Buchholz, page 636, again it was never discussed.

    MR IRVING:  "It is possible that Hitler issued the order", what
         does he mean by that?

    A.   He is just saying that; it is possible that he issued the
         orders of such cruelties.

                                 .          132

     Q.   It is possible the Queen Mother issued the orders, but we
          are dealing with likelihoods here, are we not?

     A.   Yes, but you are saying that, you are drawing a conclusion
          from all these people's testimony that they all thought it was not possible.

     Q.   No, the conclusion that I have drawn is that all of them
          were questioned and all of them came out -- in every case
          the interrogators drew a blank, if I can put it like that?

    A.   No, well, there are two issues here which you have already
         mentioned.  One is whether or not the extermination of the
         Jews was actually discussed in Hitler's entourage to which
         these people all said, leaving aside whether you believe
         it or not, no; and the second question, whether they
         concluded from that that Hitler did not know about them,
         which is the conclusion that you draw from their
         evidence.  I am saying here, in this series of examples,
         that they did not, in fact, draw that conclusion.

     Q.   Are you aware of the fact that in most of these cases I
         personally interviewed all these men myself?

    A.   Yes.

    Q.   That I am capable to judge whether they are telling the
         truth or not and the nature of the evidence they are giving?

    A.   No.

    Q.   You do not accept that?

                                 .          133

     A.   Well, no, I think you wait for the answer you want and you
          do not probe any deeper.

     Q.   So I am not capable of detecting forgeries or lies or
          anything like that?

     A.   Not when people are saying what you want them to say, no.

     Q.   Can we have another name?

     A.   Buchholz:  "The Fuhrer did not discover" -- well, "The
          treatment of political prisoners in concentration camps
          was never discussed in the briefings with Hitler at which I was present".

    Q.   Page, please?

    A.   636.  "The reason why lies in the fact", he says, "the
         reason lies" and then:  "The circle of those in the know
         had been kept very small.  I am convinced that such
         questions have always been treated between the Fuhrer and
         the Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Himmler, "Himmler in strict
         confidence.  Especially in last half year, such
         conversations between these two often took place, usually
          before or after a briefing at which Himmler appeared".  And then ----

    MR IRVING:  Can I stop you?

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a specific claim that Hitler did
         know, is it not?

    A.   Yes.

    MR IRVING:  Yes, but it is based on the fact that Himmler and
         Hitler met in private and that this, therefore, invites

                                 .          134

          the following immediate question, do we not have the notes
          which Himmler drew up for the meetings of the ----

     A.   Well, not obviously -- one does not know whether they are complete or not.

     Q.   Professor Evans, have we not been not been looking at some
          of the handwritten notes ----

     A.   Mr Irving, the ----

     Q.   --- the handwritten notes of the ----

     A.   These members of this staff are giving their opinion.
         What we are talking about here is their opinion.  You have
         said that because they say that there was no discussion in
         Hitler's entourage, therefore, Hitler did not know about
         it.  I am quoting the opinions of various of these people
         that Hitler did know.  That is what is at issue.  That is
         a separate matter from whether Hitler really did know or
         not.  It is a question of ----

    Q.   Shall we look at exactly what Buchholz says?

    A.   -- a question of the evidence.  Yes, indeed.

     Q.   He says:  "I am convinced that such questions have always
         been treated between the Reichsfuhrer and Hitler and
         Himmler in strict confidence".   Of course, Buchholz is,
         effectively, saying, "I do not know what happened between
         them", is he not?

    A.   Well, no.  He is actually saying he knows what ----

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is guessing, I suppose that is fair, is it not?

                                 .          135

     A.   --- he suspects.  Yes, but he is giving his opinion.

     MR IRVING:  He is guessing.  But we do not have to guess, my
          Lord, because we have the agenda.

     A.   He is giving his opinion, "I am convinced".

     Q.   Yes.  Do you have another name?  I mean, unless his
          Lordship has further questions to ask ----

     A.   No, I have plenty more.

     Q.   Yes, well, we want to move through the names with speed
          because we are not ----

    A.   I am moving them as fast as I can.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am happy just to have the names, but if you
         want to ask questions, Mr Irving, that is entirely
         appropriate and please do so.

    MR IRVING:  I am asking, for example, on Engel where there is
         an important point, I slowed the matter down, but on the
         other names I an not really going to halt the flow.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it is up to you decide.  I mean, if you
         say, "Oh, well, do not be ridiculous, he is not even
          hinting that Hitler knew", then I think you ought to put a
         question to that effect.

    MR IRVING:  I have heard nothing that shakes me yet, my Lord,
         because frankly I am very familiar with all these papers.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, well, I am not nearly as familiar as you
         so it helps me to know which Adjutants Professor Evans is
         going to point to.

    A.   Right, the next one.

                                 .          136

     MR IRVING:  Then I will ask a few general questions at the end.

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right.

     A.   Then a statement by Heinz Linge.

     MR IRVING:  On which page?

     A.   639 to 40.

     Q.   640?

     A.   Yes, and again 642 to 3.  Then 645, let us have a look at
          this.  Brottigan, 645 to 6.

     Q.   Can we know exactly what is in your statement ----

    A.   It is all in my report.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just go to the bit because I was looking for
         the particular passage you rely on.

    A.   Right.  Well, there are two passages, 639 to 40 and 642 to
         3, by Hitler's attitude towards the Jews.  All right.

    MR IRVING:  It does not amount to a row of beans really, does it?

    A.   Brottigan/Schumndt, pages 645 to 6.

    Q.   Have you read the diaries of Brottigan which I found in
          the Library of Congress?  Are you aware that I found the
         diary of Otto Brottigan in the Library of Congress, the
         handwritten diary?

    A.   And Christa Schroeder ----

    Q.   Can you answer my question, please?

    A.   Sorry, yes. I am aware you found it, yes.

    Q.   Is there anything in the handwritten diary of Otto
         Brottigan which indicates a knowledge of Hitler of the

                                 .          137

          Final Solution in the homicidal sense?

     A.   Right, page 645.

     Q.   This is Wolga German's episode, is it not?

     A.   That is right, yes.

     Q.   Yes?

     A.   That is to say, in the report that Rosenberg urged a kind
          of retaliation for the Stalin deportation of all the
          Germans to Siberia.

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not read that as suggesting that
         Brottigan thought that Hitler knew.

    MR IRVING:  You come to Christa Schroeder?

    A.   Yes, page 652.  I did this very hastily, I am afraid, just
         after the lunch.  Speaking to Gita Szereni, of course,
         Hitler knew it was all his ideas, his orders who remembers
         a particular incident.

    MR IRVING:  Christa Schroeder was pretty frank with me, was she
         not, Hitler's private secretary?  She told me about Hitler
         after the Night of the Long Knives and things like that.
          I remember:  "I have had a shower and I feel as clean as
         new born baby", episodes like that.

    A.   On that particular incident, yes.  That was some years
         before, I believe, not in 1977.  In other words, it was
         earlier, was it not?

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Schroeder is again categorical.  Hitler knew
         perfectly well he had been told by Himmler.

    A.   Yes.

                                 .          138

     MR IRVING:  Where is this?

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The top of page 650.

     Q.   This is the book by Christa Schroeder, is it?

     A.   No, it is an interview by Gita Szereni with Christa
          Schroeder in an article Szereni wrote about your work.

     Q.   Are you aware that I am conducting a libel action against
          Gita Szereni?

     A.   Yes.

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What has that got to do with this case?

    MR IRVING:  The following question will explain, my Lord.
         I have asked for her notes on the discussion with
         Schroeder by way of discovery and she has said that no
         notes were taken.  Are you aware of that?

    A.   You would have to show me the correspondence before I will
         believe you, Mr Irving.

    MR JUSTICE GRAY:  She must have taped it; she could not have
         kept it all in her head, Mr Irving?

    A.   Tape recorders did exist in 1977.

     MR IRVING:  My Lord, I do not consider Gita Szereni to be
         either a neutral or a reliable observer.  I knew Christa
         Schroeder extremely well.  I persuaded her to talk me in
         very great detail over a period of 10 years.  She wrote to
         me from her death bed.  Your Lordship is aware that she
         gave me as a gift a prized possession of a Hitler
         self-portrait, that kind of thing, so a lot of what you
         can read here about Christa Schroeder has to be taken very

                                 .          139

          much cum grano salis, in my submission.

     MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When did she die?

     MR IRVING:  In 1984, June.

     A.   I think that I do not dismiss this as being Miss Szereni's
          invention.  I do not think that Miss Szereni invents things.

     MR IRVING:  Until and unless Miss Szereni can produce the
          notes, and ----

     A.   It is not necessarily notes; it could be tape recordings.

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