Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day021.15 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 MR IRVING: My Lord, the content is referenced on page 277. The broadcast, while it spoke of the "justifiable and comprehensible public indignation of the murder, it strictly forbade all further actions against the Jews and it was repeated at hourly intervals and printed in next day's party newspapers", which is how we know the text. MR JUSTICE GRAY: 277 of what? MR IRVING: My Goebbels biography, I am sorry, my Lord. A. It would help if I could see the text. Q. Of the newspaper repetition of the broadcast? A. No, does that ---- MR RAMPTON: May I suggest item 23 on page 10? I do not know if this is right or not. This is sheer guesswork on my part. "Rundgruff" which I think is a broadcast. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, that might be right, yes. MR IRVING: Can I, in preference to the recommendation by Mr Rampton, ask you to look again at that document in my bundle? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I am going to ask the witness whether he thinks that 23A Mr Rampton just pointed out is, in fact, the broadcast. The only problem is it goes out in the afternoon. . P-135 A. Yes, at 4 o'clock. Q. Oh, that is a reference to that. MR IRVING: Can we now look it document? A. If it will assist, it is the news, the official German news agency. It does not actually say that it is a broadcast. MR IRVING: Can I now ask you to look at the document ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we go just quickly through it? Can you give us the gist of it in a sentence? A. Yes. Dr Goebbels, let it be known that the justifiable anger of the German people over the murder of vom Rath has been expressed in a previous -- in last night. In many places in the Reich there were acts of revenge against Jewish buildings and shops, but there is now the whole, the whole population is now strictly ordered not to attempt any further demonstrations and actions. The final answer to the assassination in Paris will be a legal one". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Looking at page 277 of Mr Irving's book - --- MR IRVING: It appears to be the same. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- it is plainly a reference to the same broadcast, well, the same communication, but it is differently timed which makes me ask you what exactly are we looking at? Document 23? A. Yes. Q. Is that authoritative or not? A. It is an authoritative official circular, "Rundgruff" is a . P-136 kind of circular call, really, of the official German news agency in Berlin, at 4 o'clock on 10th November -- well, the title, to be precise, says: "On the afternoon of 10th November". Then the footnote in this edition of the document says it is at 4 o'clock. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I am sorry, Mr Irving, but that may have clarified that point. MR IRVING: Well, it would have clarified it even better if the witness had looked at the document at which you were looking at previously, the 10th November, in the little bundle I gave you. If you look at the big block of text at the bottom, the message from Dr Goebbels? A. Wait a minute now. Sorry, I have too many bundles. Which collection is this? Q. The one after the Anordnumg again? A. Is that this one? Q. Yes. A. With the green ---- Q. Yes. A. Page? Q. It is in chronological order. 10th November 1938. That is the one there. A big block of text? A. Yes. Q. Beginning at the bottom ---- A. "Strengvertraulich", yes? Q. [German - documents not provided] "I draw attention to my . P-137 announcement made today concerning the ending of the anti-Jewish demonstrations and actions" ---- A. That is right, yes. Q. --- which have already been announced via press and radio", is that correct? A. That is right, yes. Q. That establishes that this came after the press and radio announcements? A. Yes. Q. So you are prepared to accept, are you, that there had been an earlier radio broadcast? A. Yes. Q. By Dr Goebbels? A. Quite obviously, yes. Q. And the fact that the information on that and the disks are referenced by the neo-Nazi extreme right winger anti-Semite, Ingrid Weckert, is neither here nor there. So you accept, therefore, you are wrong probably to challenge my time of 10 a.m.? A. No, not at all. Where does it say on this document or any document that we have seen that it was at 10 a.m.? What is your evidence, Mr Irving, for the fact that this went out ---- Q. If this source is right about everything else ---- A. May I just say what I want to say, please? What is your evidence, Mr Irving, for saying that this went out at 10 . P-138 a.m.? All you have is a reference to Ingrid Weckert. Q. Which is a source you are not prepared to accept, although she is right on everything else? A. I beg your pardon? I do not think she is at all. Q. As far as this particular matter is concerned? A. Your reference to that is the broadcast as recounted by Ingrid Weckert at 10 a.m. and I am saying that I have not seen yet any evidence to suggest it was at 10 a.m. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I just ask you this? The Rundgruff that goes out at, apparently, 4 o'clock makes an announcement in the name of Dr Goebbels? A. Yes. Q. Can you comment, as a matter of likelihood, as to whether if that goes out at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and bearing in mind what is going on throughout Germany, it would have, in fact, followed an announcement made six hours earlier? That is not very well put, that question. Do you understand what I am getting at? A. Yes, I do. It seems somewhat unlikely. It is a long gap. Q. Because, in effect, they would be sitting on their hands for six hours? A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR IRVING: Is it right that the passage I just drew your attention to makes reference to the announcements that have already been made through press and radio? . P-139 A. Yes, yes, we have said that. Q. And it does not say "just recently made through press and radio"? A. "Already" it says. Q. Is there any reason why they would have sat on their hands all day until 4 p.m. A. I cannot think of one. Q. Yes, but you accept that the meeting between Dr Goebbels and Hitler was some time in the morning? A. No. It seems that they communicate -- that they had two communications, one of which, it seems, was probably by telephone at some time in the morning, and that is, according to the Goebbels diaries, where he says, you know, "What to do now, that is the question", and it clearly ---- Q. So you now concede that they did telephone. A. Yes, I do not think I have ever said that they did not, not in the middle of the night, but in the morning. Here we are. Goebbels diary says: "Let the beatings continue or stop them. That is now the question." And then he has a ---- Q. What is the German for "Let the beatings continue" since we are there? "Weiter Schlagen lossen"? A. I would have to see the text, I am afraid. I can look it up, if you like? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it is really necessary. . P-140 MR IRVING: No, it is unimportant. No. Just a question on the translation again. A. "Hauen", I think, is it "Weiter Hauen"? That is from memory though. Q. So on the balance of probabilities ---- A. And then -- can I just say my ----- Q. --- if we now string together the sequence of events - --- A. Sorry, I have not been able to answer your ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you are talking over Professor Evans time and again. MR IRVING: My Lord, I began speaking before he interrupted. A. I am trying to answer your question, Mr Irving. Now, my view of the sequence of events is that on the morning of 10th November there is a conversation, looks like a phone conversation, between Hitler and Goebbels, where they discuss what to do and ---- MR IRVING: Why do you think it was in the morning? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will you stop interrupting, Mr Irving, please. Just let the witness complete an answer. A. And they then decide, then Goebbels drafts the order. They meet in the Osteria restaurant, probably for lunch, and then after that the order is drafted and it is sent out in the afternoon. That is my reading of the sequence of events. MR IRVING: The timing is immaterial, is it not? A. No. The time is not really immaterial. I mean, we know . P-141 that the pogrom did not start until about 8 o'clock in the morning in Vienna, for example ---- Q. What we can say with certainty ---- A. --- that orders were going out from Dalueges at 20 past 6 to get the pogrom going so that it was still in full swing in the early hours of the morning. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I think I have the -- I am not interrupting; I am just simply telling you that I think I have the point on the timing of the events of 10th. MR IRVING: The timing is not very important, I appreciate, my Lord, but now let me go on to ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, we have spent quite a long time on it. MR IRVING: --- the motivation, that, in other words, at some time between midnight and the Osteria meeting, a phone call had occurred between Hitler and Goebbels, is that right? A. No, I do not accept it is as broad a time frame as that. This is the ---- Q. I think his Lordship has said that the time is unimportant. A. --- what we are talking -- may I finish my answer, Mr Irving? What this is, this is the final order putting the stop to the pogrom and saying that, "Now there will be legal measures to kind of back it up". It is saying to everybody, "Stop", and this really is the order from Hitler and Goebbels, agreed between them, saying, "Don't . P-142 not do anything more of any sort. The whole thing has got to stop". Now, since orders were going out from Hess, for example, at 2.56 which made it quite clear at that time that the action should, the pogrom should continue, as we have already seen this morning, it is very unlikely that this order to stop it all was issued before 2.56. In addition, there are further orders that go out after 2.56. MR IRVING: From where? A. From Daluege, for one, and that there is plenty of evidence that this -- many contemporary reports which indicate that the pogrom was continuing through the daylight hours of the morning of 10th. So I think the time frame for this order is some time in the afternoon of the 10th, and it looks like, because it refers to a previous broadcast which seems to have been made at 4 o'clock, that it is round about 4 o'clock or shortly after that. Certainly, the evidence seems to be that then although there were, sporadic actions did continue after that, that the main action then came to a stop. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Shall we move on to the next aspect? MR IRVING: This is why you attach importance and not accepting the 10 a.m. timing, is that correct? MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, we are moving on now, Mr Irving. MR IRVING: Well, my Lord, you interrupted the questions I was about to put to him and invited him to continue speaking. . P-143 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, if it is about the next topic, fine, but if it is not, I really think we have had enough on the sequence of events. MR IRVING: So Hitler invited Goebbels to come to him bringing a prepared order stopping everything? A. I have already said that it looks as if they decided there should be a prepared order in a phone conversation some time in the morning of 10th, that they met in the Osteria restaurant, Goebbels had a drafted order which they then agreed would be sent out. I have to say, Mr Irving, one of the reasons why this is taking so long is that you are constantly asking the same questions again and again and again, and I have to give the same answers again and again. MR JUSTICE GRAY: And I am asking you to move on. Please, Mr Irving, move on. MR IRVING: I do not really wish to be lectured by the witness on how I conduct my cross-examination. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, take the lecture from me and please, please, move on. MR IRVING: So what dispute do you have with -- and this is serious -- the way that I described this particular matter then?
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