Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day021.07 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 Q. That was not what you said in answer to my question, was it? You said you did not know of any instances where he had been wrong? A. I honestly cannot remember. I would have to see the transcript. Q. You would have to see the transcript. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, probably now is the right moment to ask you this. Where are you suggesting, or where is anyone suggesting, we should put this clip of documents because it is very convenient you have prepared it in the way you have. MS ROGERS: If I can help? L2 is the Kristallnacht file. There should be an empty tab 9. If it is empty, I suggest it goes there. MR IRVING: Do you, therefore, accept, Professor, that I had three sources of what you would describe as being of variable quality, all converging on an episode in Hitler's private quarters on the Night of Broken Glass in which Hitler, apparently, vented his anger upon receiving news of what was happening in Munich, at least? A. Yes, and I think they are all lying. Q. You think that all three are separately lying? A. Well, Mr Irving, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility. You have already suggested in the course of this trial that many thousands of Holocaust survivors are . P-58 all collectively lying, so it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that three people are lying, is it? Q. But the problem we have with the eyewitnesses in other matters before the court is that their accounts diverge, whereas the significant detail about these three is that in minor points the little bits of verisimilitude are the same? A. Like the fact that it took place on a Sunday, for example? Q. I am now going to take you through some points in your report relating to the Kristallnacht, page 237, line 2? A. 237? Q. You say that the real number of deaths, including suicides, was certainly much higher than 91. A. Right, yes. Q. And, of course, I put the figure at about 91 or 100, do I not, in my book? A. That is right. Q. That is what you are criticising? Do you have any evidence for saying that the real number of deaths was certainly much higher? A. Yes, now there were, certainly I think over 200 in Vienna alone. That is the figure, of course, that is given by the Nazi Party tribunal, but it is clear that there were deaths, suicides, in the camps when the 20,000 were arrested. . P-59 Q. Where does that figure come from? MR JUSTICE GRAY: What, 91 or 200? MR IRVING: The larger figure. A. The 91 are the murders which are listed in the Party report. Q. Yes. In a Party report; of course, there were several such reports, were there not? A. That is the Party tribunal which investigated these events. Q. So the figure of 200 in Vienna alone, where does that kind of figure come from? A. That comes from a contemporary report in Vienna. I am trying to find where my records are of this. I think I answered this in one of my answers to your written questions. Q. Very well. Let us proceed then. A. I refer you to that, my Lord. Q. It is rather holding up the court on that matter. I do not attach much importance to that, my Lord, so we will move on. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think it is... MR IRVING: At the beginning of paragraph 8, please? "These events were the only major nationwide pogrom undertaken in public against the Jewish population during the 'Third Reich'", is that the popular perception nowadays? A. Would you like to point me to others? . P-60 Q. Do you accept that there were other major pogroms against the Jews in Germany? A. Could you name some? Q. Are these well-known to historians, do you think? A. Could you tell me when they happened? Q. Can I turn your attention to page 252 of my Goebbels biography? A. Yes. Q. Does the middle paragraph, the second paragraph, of that page describe a pogrom in Berlin organized by the Nazis in June 1938 of which there has so far by no description by historians like yourself? All the usual Nazi methods, harassment, rounding up "1,122 criminal, 445", I quote, "'anti-social', and 77 foreign Jews found ... imprisoned, 1,029 were thrown into concentration camps ... 250 Jewish-owned automobiles seized pending safety tests", I mean, real harassment going on there? MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the relevance of this, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: He has said here in his paragraph 8 that this was "the only nationwide pogrom undertaken in public against the Jewish population during the 'Third Reich'". It is an attack on his credibility as an expert witness. He appears unfamiliar with the facts that in June 1938 Goebbels organized without any consent from Hitler a pogrom against the Jews which is a kind of a trial run on a major scale in Berlin, and I found the details of this . P-61 in records in Princetown University Library. There is the original report by Heldorf, the Police Chief of Berlin. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I hear what you say, Mr Irving, but what I am concerned with is whether the criticisms of your account of Kristallnacht are well-founded or whether they are not, and the fact you have discovered another, as you put it, major pogrom in Berlin in June 1938 does not appear to help me very much on that. MR IRVING: Well, it is a question of state of mind and mind set and expertise of myself versus this witness, my Lord. THE WITNESS: May I just then, in response to that, say that, of course, I am aware of the fact that there was a great deal of harassment and violence towards Jews in the Third Reich, throughout the Third Reich, from the very beginning, in particular, the beginning of April 1933, and during the so-called Nazi seizure of power during those months there were many arrests and a great deal of violence against individual Jews. There was a considerable amount in 1935 which was the background to the Nuremberg laws, and there were a considerable number of events, of violent actions, against arrests of, harassment, maltreatment of Jews, right the way through, including 1938. The point I am trying to make here is that, "These events were the only major nationwide pogrom undertaken in public against the Jewish population during . P-62 the 'Third Reich'". Let me draw your attention to two words there, the first is "pogrom" which I understand to be acts of mass violence and destruction and, secondly, "nationwide". What you are describing here in the central paragraph of page 252 of Goebbels are arrests accompanied, no doubt, by harassment and, secondly, it is only in Berlin. So I feel that I am justified in making that statement. MR IRVING: Can we turn to page 258, please, of your report? You are accusing me here of suppressing evidence again, are you not? Line 3, you have given a quotation from the Goebbels diary, page 56: "Shock-troop Hitler gets Goring immediately to clear things out", and so on, "the events during the night". Then you state: "This contemporary document - not mentioned by Irving" ---- A. May I just pre-empt you here, in my letter with amendments, 10th January 2000, I recognize on checking through it all again that you do cite the century on page 276 of Goebbels, so I was wrong there. Q. So you were wrong there to suggest that I had suppressed evidence? A. Absolutely, yes, yes. Q. I quoted it in full, in fact? A. That is another matter, but you do mention it. Q. I quoted it in full? . P-63 A. You will have to direct me to the place. Q. Page 276 of the Goebbels biography, and you have accused me of not mentioning this contemporary document? A. No, I have withdrawn that accusation, Mr Irving. I withdrew it on 10th January. So you had over a month to read that. Q. Yes, but I am just drawing your attention to the fact that once again you have made an accusation ---- A. The court is already aware of that. I drew my own attention -- I drew your attention to the fact, Mr Irving. Q. You made an accusation against me which turns out to be completely unfounded? A. I withdrew that remark. Page what of Goebbels? Q. 276. A. Is that right, page 276? Q. Lower down that page, I am now back on your report again, paragraph 7. A. Wait a minute, I am just checking the shock-troop Hitler. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I cannot find it. A. I cannot find it either. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Whereabouts on 276, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: Let us work backwards from: "His old ... (reading to the words) ... past comes flooding back". That is the final sentence of that paragraph. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which paragraph? A. The indented quote in the middle of page 276, my Lord, . P-64 which follows on: "We go with Schaub to the Artists' Club, to await further bulletins" or "reports" in my version. "In Berlin five synagogues are ablaze, then 15. Now the people's anger is aroused. That night", so on and so forth, "Schaub was on top form". I suppose that is ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes I see? A. "Schaub is completely worked up. His old shock-troop is coming past". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much. MR IRVING: Paragraph 7 on your page of your report 258, you take exception to my relying on von Below. You say: "It appears clear in this instance that rather than rely on the published book", I relied on the interview von Below in 1968? A. Yes. Q. How many interviews did I conduct with colonel von Below? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you mean there were more than one? MR IRVING: There were about 10, my Lord, yes. A. This was the interview in 1968, interviews, if you like, this is a particular interview, one particular interview in 1968. Q. All of the von Below interviews were available to your researchers in the archives, were they not? A. We are arguing about the word "the" here, Mr Irving. Q. No, we are arguing about "interviewer" in the singular. . P-65 A. I do not think that sentence implies that there were not more, and it is not an important matter. I am happy to concede that you conducted various interviews. If you like, I will withdraw the word "the" and put "and". MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, the substance of the criticism is that you go to your interview with him rather than to his own published book. That may or may not be a valid criticism, but worrying about whether there was more than one interview seems to me to be missing the wood for the trees. MR IRVING: Over the page, my Lord, on page 259, line 2, I allegedly, von Below allegedly told me something which implies that, in fact, there is no proof for it. The word "allegedly" implies there is no proof for it. That coupled with paragraph 9 where I am accused of having lied about obtaining the papers of von Below and using his unpublished manuscript? A. Well, he accused you of that. Q. On page 261, paragraph 11, we come to the famous quotation where from the Goebbels diary -- from the court report "Thousands of Jews would have to believe in it in the coming days"? A. Sorry, page what? Q. At the end of paragraph 11 of page 261. A. 261, right. Yes. I have opted for a literal translation there because I did not want to be accused of . P-66 exaggerating. I mean, I tried to convey there is a sense of menace in that, of course, perhaps had better believe it in the coming days. MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is the point on that, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: It is a German slang for "will die". A. No, I cannot agree with that. Q. "Are going for a burton"? A. No, it is not German slang for "will die". If you look it up in the dictionary as I have done. It is "will suffer the consequences" is one possible meaning. MR JUSTICE GRAY: "Glauben" means "believe", it does not mean "die". MR IRVING: It does indeed, but it is German slang. A Burton is a beer, but "going for a burton" has a specific meaning, my Lord. Goebbels writes his diary in slang, Goebbels speaks slang. "Daran glauben mussen" is a German slang, as, in fact, the Frankfurt Allgemeiner has pointed out, that I was perfectly correct in this particular matter. A. There is a threat -- there is threat included in that, but it does not threaten death. If you look it up in a dictionary, Mr Irving, you will find it does not mean "will" die.
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