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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day021.07


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day021.07
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   Q.   That was not what you said in answer to my question, was
        it?  You said you did not know of any instances where he
        had been wrong?
   A.   I honestly cannot remember.  I would have to see the
        transcript.
   Q.   You would have to see the transcript.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, probably now is the right
moment
        to ask you this.  Where are you suggesting, or where
is
        anyone suggesting, we should put this clip of
documents
        because it is very convenient you have prepared it in
the
        way you have.
   MS ROGERS:  If I can help?  L2 is the Kristallnacht file.
        There should be an empty tab 9.  If it is empty, I
suggest
        it goes there.
   MR IRVING:  Do you, therefore, accept, Professor, that I
had
        three sources of what you would describe as being of
        variable quality, all converging on an episode in
Hitler's
        private quarters on the Night of Broken Glass in which
        Hitler, apparently, vented his anger upon receiving
news
        of what was happening in Munich, at least?
   A.   Yes, and I think they are all lying.
   Q.   You think that all three are separately lying?
   A.   Well, Mr Irving, it is not beyond the bounds of
        possibility.  You have already suggested in the course
of
        this trial that many thousands of Holocaust survivors
are

.          P-58



        all collectively lying, so it is not beyond the bounds
of
        possibility that three people are lying, is it?
   Q.   But the problem we have with the eyewitnesses in other
        matters before the court is that their accounts
diverge,
        whereas the significant detail about these three is
that
        in minor points the little bits of verisimilitude are
the
        same?
   A.   Like the fact that it took place on a Sunday, for
        example?
   Q.   I am now going to take you through some points in your
        report relating to the Kristallnacht, page 237, line
2?
   A.   237?
   Q.   You say that the real number of deaths, including
        suicides, was certainly much higher than 91.
   A.   Right, yes.
   Q.   And, of course, I put the figure at about 91 or 100,
do
        I not, in my book?
   A.   That is right.
   Q.   That is what you are criticising?  Do you have any
        evidence for saying that the real number of deaths was
        certainly much higher?
   A.   Yes, now there were, certainly I think over 200 in
Vienna
        alone.  That is the figure, of course, that is given
by
        the Nazi Party tribunal, but it is clear that there
were
        deaths, suicides, in the camps when the 20,000 were
        arrested.

.          P-59



   Q.   Where does that figure come from?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What, 91 or 200?
   MR IRVING:  The larger figure.
   A.   The 91 are the murders which are listed in the Party
        report.
   Q.   Yes.  In a Party report; of course, there were several
        such reports, were there not?
   A.   That is the Party tribunal which investigated these
        events.
   Q.   So the figure of 200 in Vienna alone, where does that
kind
        of figure come from?
   A.   That comes from a contemporary report in Vienna.  I am
        trying to find where my records are of this.  I think
        I answered this in one of my answers to your written
        questions.
   Q.   Very well.  Let us proceed then.
   A.   I refer you to that, my Lord.
   Q.   It is rather holding up the court on that matter.  I
do
        not attach much importance to that, my Lord, so we
will
        move on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I do not think it is...
   MR IRVING:  At the beginning of paragraph 8, please?
"These
        events were the only major nationwide pogrom
undertaken in
        public against the Jewish population during the 'Third
        Reich'", is that the popular perception nowadays?
   A.   Would you like to point me to others?

.          P-60



   Q.   Do you accept that there were other major pogroms
against
        the Jews in Germany?
   A.   Could you name some?
   Q.   Are these well-known to historians, do you think?
   A.   Could you tell me when they happened?
   Q.   Can I turn your attention to page 252 of my Goebbels
        biography?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Does the middle paragraph, the second paragraph, of
that
        page describe a pogrom in Berlin organized by the
Nazis in
        June 1938 of which there has so far by no description
by
        historians like yourself?  All the usual Nazi methods,
        harassment, rounding up "1,122 criminal, 445", I
quote,
         "'anti-social', and 77 foreign Jews found ...
imprisoned,
        1,029 were thrown into concentration camps ... 250
        Jewish-owned automobiles seized pending safety tests",
I
        mean, real harassment going on there?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the relevance of this, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  He has said here in his paragraph 8 that this
was
         "the only nationwide pogrom undertaken in public
against
        the Jewish population during the 'Third Reich'".  It
is an
        attack on his credibility as an expert witness.  He
        appears unfamiliar with the facts that in June 1938
        Goebbels organized without any consent from Hitler a
        pogrom against the Jews which is a kind of a trial run
on
        a major scale in Berlin, and I found the details of
this

.          P-61



        in records in Princetown University Library.  There is
the
        original report by Heldorf, the Police Chief of
Berlin.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I hear what you say, Mr Irving, but what
I am
        concerned with is whether the criticisms of your
account
        of Kristallnacht are well-founded or whether they are
not,
        and the fact you have discovered another, as you put
it,
        major pogrom in Berlin in June 1938 does not appear to
        help me very much on that.
   MR IRVING:  Well, it is a question of state of mind and
mind
        set and expertise of myself versus this witness, my
Lord.
   THE WITNESS:  May I just then, in response to that, say
that,
        of course, I am aware of the fact that there was a
great
        deal of harassment and violence towards Jews in the
Third
        Reich, throughout the Third Reich, from the very
        beginning, in particular, the beginning of April 1933,
and
        during the so-called Nazi seizure of power during
those
        months there were many arrests and a great deal of
        violence against individual Jews.  There was a
        considerable amount in 1935 which was the background
to
        the Nuremberg laws, and there were a considerable
number
        of events, of violent actions, against arrests of,
        harassment, maltreatment of Jews, right the way
through,
        including 1938.
                  The point I am trying to make here is that,
         "These events were the only major nationwide pogrom
        undertaken in public against the Jewish population
during

.          P-62



        the 'Third Reich'".  Let me draw your attention to two
        words there, the first is "pogrom" which I understand
to
        be acts of mass violence and destruction and,
secondly,
        "nationwide".
                  What you are describing here in the central
        paragraph of page 252 of Goebbels are arrests
accompanied,
        no doubt, by harassment and, secondly, it is only in
        Berlin.  So I feel that I am justified in making that
        statement.
   MR IRVING:  Can we turn to page 258, please, of your
report?
        You are accusing me here of suppressing evidence
again,
        are you not?  Line 3, you have given a quotation from
the
        Goebbels diary, page 56:  "Shock-troop Hitler gets
Goring
        immediately to clear things out", and so on, "the
events
        during the night".  Then you state:  "This
contemporary
        document - not mentioned by Irving" ----
   A.   May I just pre-empt you here, in my letter with
        amendments, 10th January 2000, I recognize on checking
        through it all again that you do cite the century on
page
        276 of Goebbels, so I was wrong there.
   Q.   So you were wrong there to suggest that I had
suppressed
        evidence?
   A.   Absolutely, yes, yes.
   Q.   I quoted it in full, in fact?
   A.   That is another matter, but you do mention it.
   Q.   I quoted it in full?

.          P-63



   A.   You will have to direct me to the place.
   Q.   Page 276 of the Goebbels biography, and you have
accused
        me of not mentioning this contemporary document?
   A.   No, I have withdrawn that accusation, Mr Irving.
        I withdrew it on 10th January.  So you had over a
month to
        read that.
   Q.   Yes, but I am just drawing your attention to the fact
that
        once again you have made an accusation ----
   A.   The court is already aware of that.  I drew my own
        attention -- I drew your attention to the fact, Mr
Irving.
   Q.   You made an accusation against me which turns out to
be
        completely unfounded?
   A.   I withdrew that remark.  Page what of Goebbels?
   Q.   276.
   A.   Is that right, page 276?
   Q.   Lower down that page, I am now back on your report
again,
        paragraph 7.
   A.   Wait a minute, I am just checking the shock-troop
Hitler.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I cannot find it.
   A.   I cannot find it either.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Whereabouts on 276, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  Let us work backwards from:  "His old ...
(reading
        to the words) ... past comes flooding back".  That is
the
        final sentence of that paragraph.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which paragraph?
   A.   The indented quote in the middle of page 276, my Lord,

.          P-64



        which follows on:  "We go with Schaub to the Artists'
        Club, to await further bulletins" or "reports" in my
        version.  "In Berlin five synagogues are ablaze, then
15.
        Now the people's anger is aroused.  That night", so on
and
        so forth, "Schaub was on top form".  I suppose that
        is ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes I see?
   A.   "Schaub is completely worked up.  His old shock-troop
is
        coming past".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR IRVING:  Paragraph 7 on your page of your report 258,
you
        take exception to my relying on von Below.  You say:
"It
        appears clear in this instance that rather than rely
on
        the published book", I relied on the interview von
Below
        in 1968?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   How many interviews did I conduct with colonel von
Below?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do you mean there were more than one?
   MR IRVING:  There were about 10, my Lord, yes.
   A.   This was the interview in 1968, interviews, if you
like,
        this is a particular interview, one particular
interview
        in 1968.
   Q.   All of the von Below interviews were available to your
        researchers in the archives, were they not?
   A.   We are arguing about the word "the" here, Mr Irving.
   Q.   No, we are arguing about "interviewer" in the
singular.

.          P-65



   A.   I do not think that sentence implies that there were
not
        more, and it is not an important matter.  I am happy
to
        concede that you conducted various interviews.  If you
        like, I will withdraw the word "the" and put "and".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, the substance of the
criticism is
        that you go to your interview with him rather than to
his
        own published book.  That may or may not be a valid
        criticism, but worrying about whether there was more
than
        one interview seems to me to be missing the wood for
the
        trees.
   MR IRVING:  Over the page, my Lord, on page 259, line 2, I
        allegedly, von Below allegedly told me something which
        implies that, in fact, there is no proof for it.  The
word
        "allegedly" implies there is no proof for it.  That
        coupled with paragraph 9 where I am accused of having
lied
        about obtaining the papers of von Below and using his
        unpublished manuscript?
   A.   Well, he accused you of that.
   Q.   On page 261, paragraph 11, we come to the famous
quotation
        where from the Goebbels diary -- from the court report
         "Thousands of Jews would have to believe in it in the
        coming days"?
   A.   Sorry, page what?
   Q.   At the end of paragraph 11 of page 261.
   A.   261, right.  Yes.  I have opted for a literal
translation
        there because I did not want to be accused of

.          P-66



        exaggerating.  I mean, I tried to convey there is a
sense
        of menace in that, of course, perhaps had better
believe
        it in the coming days.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What is the point on that, Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  It is a German slang for "will die".
   A.   No, I cannot agree with that.
   Q.   "Are going for a burton"?
   A.   No, it is not German slang for "will die".  If you
look it
        up in the dictionary as I have done.  It is "will
suffer
        the consequences" is one possible meaning.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  "Glauben" means "believe", it does not
mean
        "die".
   MR IRVING:  It does indeed, but it is German slang.  A
Burton
        is a beer, but "going for a burton" has a specific
        meaning, my Lord.  Goebbels writes his diary in slang,
        Goebbels speaks slang.  "Daran glauben mussen" is a
German
        slang, as, in fact, the Frankfurt Allgemeiner has
pointed
        out, that I was perfectly correct in this particular
        matter.
   A.   There is a threat -- there is threat included in that, but
        it does not threaten death.  If you look it up in a
        dictionary, Mr Irving, you will find it does not mean
        "will" die.

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