Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day019.23 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 Q. And what is used for disposing of this typhus bearing louse? A. Well, it is a question of prevention to start with, and that is the nub of the question. The concentration camp authorities did very little to prevent it because they did not provide conditions of cleanliness. It was exactly the same about the way in which they treated Russian prisoners of war. Q. Are you not familiar with the fact that in all the concentration camps of the Nazi system they had fumigation chambers for cleaning the clothing of the incoming prisoners? They had the clean side, the dirty side, the showers, the baths, the hair cuts, the whole of this system that went with this combatting of the typhus epidemic? Are you not familiar with that? . P-208 A. Yes, it was an extremely ---- Q. In your statement the Nazis did nothing is, therefore, wrong? A. It is extremely ineffective and I said did nothing to prevent it. I mean, it certainly did not. The evidence is there. Q. So the fumigation chambers, what they there for if it was not to prevent the typhus plague? A. It was done in a rather inadequate way. Obviously, there was some incentive on the part of the SS to try to restrict the level and spread of epidemics, but the fact is that unhygienic conditions were part and parcel of the inhumanity of the concentration camps. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, we have to keep a slight grip on reality. It is your case that the typhus killed a very large proportion of the Jews who lost their lives. MR IRVING: Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is difficult in the next breath to say how wonderful the system of fumigating clothes and the like was. MR IRVING: My Lord, that is not the way I put it, but this witness ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it comes close to it. MR IRVING: --- said the Nazis did nothing to prevent the typhus epidemics. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you were putting to him that they had . P-209 done a very great deal. Well, if they had ---- MR IRVING: I picked up the words that they had done nothing and, in fact, we have been sitting here for five weeks listening to nothing but the evidence that they had fumigation chambers for dealing with these epidemics. Particularly in Auschwitz, they went very, very far indeed. I do not have the photographs here any more, but there were the water purification plants they were installing. They went a very long way to try to combat this appalling problem which spread across Central Europe from 1942 onwards and, of course, as the war approached its end, this problem reached its zenith with the total collapse of hygiene, the total collapse of medical facilities, the collapse of transportation, the shifting of tens of hundreds of thousands of people in these unhygienic conditions. A. Well, the measures which were undertaken, fumigation and so on, were mostly undertaken after epidemics had broken out to try to limit them, obviously, because the SS in the camps would then feel that they are endangered themselves, and other measures which they did undertake when epidemics broke out were killing the sick by injections or putting them into gas chambers. So they did undertake some measures. But I cannot say that they were in the -- that they did very much to prevent the epidemics. Q. Did the Germans not have an Institute of Racial Hygiene . P-210 which did nothing other than combat epidemics? That is what it was created for? A. I do not agree that the Institute of Racial Hygiene was about combating epidemics, no. Q. Professor Pfannenstiel, was he not a member of that Institute? A. The institute of Racial Hygiene was much more concerned with as it suggests, not hygiene in common sense ---- Q. But did they not have ---- A. --- but it is to do with race. Q. --- a special body set up doing nothing else than investigating the spread of epidemics because of the damage it was causing to German war effort? A. Yes, what I said was that -- I am not quite sure what we are arguing about here, but what I said was that the conditions in the camps which favoured -- there were conditions in the camps which were deliberately created by the Nazis which were unhygienic, dirty, degrading and encouraged epidemics. Q. Would you explain the word "deliberately"? Are you implying that these epidemic bearing lice in some way distinguished between the prisoner, on the one hand, and the SS guard, on the other? They knew which uniform to go for? A. No. Q. Why would anybody create an epidemic deliberately in a . P-211 camp? A. I did not say they created the epidemic. I said that they created the conditions. I mean, they knew full well what would ---- Q. They deliberately created epidemic conditions? A. They full knew what would happen in those filthy conditions which they ---- Q. They negligently created epidemic conditions? A. I do not think it was a matter of oversight on their part, Mr Irving. Q. Have you read Professor van Pelt's book on Auschwitz in which he describes in great detail the negligence of the designers in this respect? A. I have to admit I have not, no. MR JUSTICE GRAY: In what respect in the design of? MR IRVING: The layout of the camp. They said it was inviting epidemics, the way it was designed. The prisoners had to march long distances in order to get to hygiene facilities, and so on. A. That would seem to confirm my point of view. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is rather what I thought, yes. I mean, does that not rather suggest that they were not too concerned about epidemics breaking out? MR IRVING: Through negligence they have the camp badly designed is very different from saying that they deliberately created epidemic conditions? . P-212 A. But you just maintained, Mr Irving, that they knew all about epidemics and they had institutes devoted to them and so on. It is rather puzzling that in that case it should be a mere oversight when they are building these institutions. Q. So you agree that there were major epidemics in Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald at the end of the war? A. Yes. Q. Were these deliberately created, is that your contention? A. The conditions there were deliberately created by the Nazis, of course. In other words, had they wanted to prevent them, they could have done so. Q. But they just let the epidemics run, did they? A. No. As I have said, they then made attempts (which I have just described) to try to limit the epidemics. You can compare this, if you like, with prisoners of war camps for British airmen and troops in which hygienic conditions were a good deal better. Q. Do you know how many people died in Dachau concentration camp in the first two months after World War II from epidemics? A. A substantial number. Q. Was it of the order of 20,000 prisoners? A. I will take your word for it. Q. Under American control, with the Americans deliberately spreading epidemics too? . P-213 A. No, Mr Irving. They were dealing with the consequences. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, this is all getting a little absurd. This all started out because you wrote or said that, "We", that is to say the Allies, "have deliberately created the epidemics" and maybe I have rather contributed to this by asking Professor Evans whether he thought that was a sensible view for an historian to take. We now seem to have gone the full circle, as it were. Anyway, I think we have probably exhausted the topic. MR IRVING: I do not think I put it exactly they way your Lordship says. I say we deliberately created the conditions of chaos through our bombing campaign, Operation Point Blank and Eclipse and so on. A. Well, may I quote to you, Mr Irving: "We had deliberately quote created the epidemics and the outbreaks of typhus and other diseases which led to those appalling scenes that were found at their most dramatic in the enclosed areas, the concentration camps" -- a lecture you gave in 1986. MR IRVING: Oh, a speech? A. Yes. Q. A lecture? I thought it was from a book. A. Well, I presume you accept responsibility for saying that, Mr Irving ---- Q. In other words, that is ---- A. --- whether you said it or wrote it. . P-214 Q. --- from a transcript of a speech made by somebody, is that right? A. It is a video -- an audio cassette of a speech. Q. Have you not just read out a speech two or three minutes ago which was quite clearly vulgarized, the text? MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can, if necessary, look at that speech if you think that the context makes any difference, but I think probably, Mr Irving, we can break off your cross-examination now. MR IRVING: That would be a useful point to break off at this point, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I make an enquiry of you which is really to ask, and I expect Professor Evans would like to know the answer, what your estimate is as to the future of your cross-examination? MR IRVING: Two and a half more days. MR JUSTICE GRAY: How many? MR IRVING: Two and a half more days. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Are you going to follow the ---- MR IRVING: I am going to follow the ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- structure of his report? MR IRVING: I think it is the only way to do it, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I think I agree with that. I think you are right. To the extent that there are matters raised in Professor Evans' report that are not any longer, I think, relied on as part of the Defendants' case, then you can . P-215 probably not trouble with them or, at any rate, take them very shortly if you want to. MR IRVING: Yes. Has your Lordship in your Lordship's memory which particular matters those are that are no longer relied on? Sikorsky is one, I believe? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sikorsky is certainly one. Hitler's adjutants, I think, has rather come back in again. I mean, I think it is probably not sensible for me to try to identify them now because I do not really have them in mind, but if the Defendants let you know whether there are parts in your report that are no longer relied on, that might simplify things all round. MR IRVING: What about Moscow? Is there anything about Moscow in this report? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think there is. MR RAMPTON: Not about Moscow. I have done that anyway. Moscow is certainly a live issue. There is nothing about Moscow in this report, as far as I know. MR IRVING: My Lord, are you going to permit a further cross-examination of me? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have always contemplated there would be a further cross-examination, but it is not open-ended. It is dealing with left over topics. MR RAMPTON: Can I tell your Lordship what I have left? I have got the Fleming book which has a reference to the Muller message to the Einsatzgruppen on 1st August 1941. I have . P-216 got Kinner Zamos report of 16th December 1942. I have got Anne Frank. I have got the criminal statistics which is dealt with towards the end of Professor Evans' report, pages 692 to 8, and I have got a couple of other things which I am just having checked at the moment. If necessary, I will give notice and, of course, I have the political associations as well. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. That is very helpful, but if you are able to tell, or Miss Rogers or somebody is able to tell, Mr Irving that there are parts of Professor Evans' report which are no longer really relied on and, therefore, he need not trouble with them? MR RAMPTON: I think it means we can regard the Adjutants and the Roman Jews as out of the ring. MR JUSTICE GRAY: There may be other bits? MR RAMPTON: Little bits, but those are the two main subjects, yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Does that help, Mr Irving, a bit? MR RAMPTON: Though I cannot guarantee it will not ---- MR IRVING: If I had known we could have torn up the first 120 pages of his report, it would have saved a lot of time. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure that I would put it quite like that. (The court adjourned until the following day) . P-217
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