Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day019.07 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, let us move on. . P-57 A. Yes. If I can just say, my Lord, the point that I make repeatedly in my report is that the three dots, as it were, are missing from Mr Irving's manipulation of quotations. He does not ---- MR IRVING: Have you found one instance where I have not replaced missing materials with the appropriate ellipses, I ask you, Professor. A. Plenty, yes. Q. And you have referred to them actually in your report? A. Yes, yes. Q. We shall take that when we come. Can you give one example from memory? A. For example, in your -- yes, from memory, your account of the discussions between Admiral Horthy and Hitler and Ribbentrop in 1943, when you actually mix up, when you transpose a phrase from Hitler from one day to the other in order to make him look better without any indication that you have actually done this. Q. This is totally different from the question I asked you. Have you found one instance where I left words or a passage out of a document and did not replace it with ellipses? A. Exactly, then that is exactly my answer. Q. No. A. I am afraid it is, Mr Irving. Shall we turn to the pages ---- . P-58 Q. Please do, yes. A. --- in question? MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is around page 440. I think it is 444, but I may be wrong. A. The point here is that you transpose the sentence from ---- MR IRVING: We are not talking about transposition here. A. Well, what we are doing is that you leave out the entire gap, the entire enormous passages, between the discussions of 16th and discussions of 17th of April 1943, and you ---- Q. I think you are deliberately obscuring the issue. This is not the answer to my question. A. I am sorry, I am not deliberately obscuring ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, let him give it and then you can, of course, make the point that it is not an answer to the question. Sorry, Professor Evans, carry on. A. Here is your -- you simply go straight on, what you said, "'They can hardly be murdered or otherwise eliminated', he protested. Hitler reassured him there is no need for that". MR IRVING: Are you suggesting I left material out of that sentence? A. That implied, that implies, that there was no gap at all between these two sentences. Q. You know as well as I do, Professor, what the etiquette . P-59 for use of ellipses is. Is that correct? A. Indeed, yes. Q. That is not an appropriate place for the insertion of ellipses. One has not left material out. A. You have taken a Hitler statement from one day and transposed it to another. Q. We are not talking about transposition. A. You have an left enormous amount of material out there and given a completely misleading impression of the discussions which took place. Q. Professor, would you accept that if you quote one sentence from a report, by definition, you are leaving out the whole of the rest of the report, and you do not replace the rest of the report with ellipses, is that correct? A. It depends how you do it. I mean, for example, I could have done in my report, instead of having and indented quote with ellipses in, I could have had a number of separate quotes as you do here, separated by your own or my own commentary, but the effect is the same. Q. In the case instanced here it would not have worked, would it, because you said "the merchant banks ..." and then you go on using the verb of another sentence. A. Yes, I do not think that what I have left out, had it been put in, would have given what you said, another impression, a different meaning. Q. Why do you say that I equate the traditional enemies of . P-60 free speech with the "Jewish community", in quotation marks, when it is quite plain from everything that I have written that they are part of the bundle of people who try to suppress free speech, either by refusing to debate, or by smashing windows, or by putting pressure on publishers, or by inserting filters in the Internet or whatever? A. I have already given my answer to that, the fact that on your website your list of the traditional enemies of free speech includes ---- Q. Is entirely Jewish, is entirely Jewish community, is it? A. 90 per cent, I think. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I wish we could find it because, if Professor Evans is right, it is an answer to the question and it is quite an illuminating answer. MR IRVING: I agree, it is. Would you agree that the Australian Government is one of the people listed on that pull down menu? A. I would have to see the list. Q. Would you agree that Cyber Patrol which is a filtering system for the Internet Surf Watch? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Until and until we find it, Mr Irving, this is a bit difficult, is it not? MR IRVING: I am trying to put some ideas in your Lordship's mind, that this witness is not accurate when he says 90 per cent of the representatives on there are. Obviously and finally one further question on this, would you agree . P-61 that in view of the fact that these particular bodies are the ones who have inflicted most damage on me over the last 10 years ---- A. Let me just quote, Mr Irving, another quote from page 168 from a speech you made in the Clarendon Club again, 29th May 1992 ---- Q. Is this relevant to the questions that we have asked? A. "I never used to believe in the existence of an international Jewish conspiracy", you said, "I'm not even sure now if there's an international Jewish conspiracy. All I know is that people are conspiring internationally against me, and they do mostly turn out to be". Q. ... A. "... (drowned out by laughter and applause) which I think it is fairly clear that the next word was going to be "Jews". MR IRVING: My Lord, I am not able to put bundle E to this witness and ask him questions on the documents which will substantiate what I just said in that speech, but certainly when we come to submissions which I am going to make, then I will justify that particular element. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure why you say you are not -- -- MR IRVING: Because your Lordship has said that this is not the appropriate time to introduce bundle E with the documents on the global endeavour to suppress my rights to publish and write. . P-62 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, and the reason I said was that it seemed to me that the point went to the damage that you say you suffered as a result of what you say are libels. That is something you can deal with in your evidence or in submissions. But if you are challenging -- but, you see, it is coming in a slightly different context. I think really, and when one gets to the bottom of it, it is further evidence -- I think this is the thrust of what Professor Evans is saying at the moment -- of an anti-semitic attitude. MR IRVING: I agree, if left alone. MR JUSTICE GRAY: On that, you are entitled to cross- examine. I hope you do not understand that one document may be relevant on two issues. On one issue ---- MR IRVING: I will not use the licence that your Lordship has given me. MR JUSTICE GRAY: On any reliance that Professor Evans places on particular documents as showing your anti-Semitism, you are perfectly entitled -- I make this absolutely clear -- to cross-examine. So if you want to show him that document from your bundle E, then please do, or your clip E. It has not become a bundle yet, has it? MR IRVING: It is quite substantial. Do you have bundle a bundle E in front of you? That is how big it is. It has been quite a major conspiracy. This is only a part of it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not encouraging you to go right the way . P-63 through it. It is simply that if there is any ---- MR IRVING: No, my Lord, but I think, firstly, one or two general questions. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: I am going to ask him one or two general questions first to set the scenery. (To the witness): Witness, is it your opinion that that remark you just quoted is evidence of an anti-semitic state of mind? A. Sorry, which remark was this? Q. You one that you decided to read out about the international conspiracy. A. Conspiracy, yes. Q. Is criticism of Jewish people or community permitted for whatever reason? MR JUSTICE GRAY: We had this yesterday. I do not think we need to traverse that ground again. A. Of course. MR JUSTICE GRAY: When I say "yesterday", I mean Thursday. MR IRVING: If you are shown scattered evidence of a concerted endeavour by representatives of that community to abrogate my rights to write and publish, over a period of, say, 25 years, around the world, would you be satisfied that that was a justified comment to make in those conditions? A. Well, that is a very hypothetical question. In order to be -- I mean, I am constitutionally disinclined to believe in international conspiracies, and it would take a very . P-64 great deal to persuade me that there was an internationally orchestrated conspiracy of this kind. It is the belief in an international Jewish conspiracy is a central element, in my view, of the most extreme forms of anti-Semitism. Q. You talk about an international Jewish conspiracy, you are just talking about the kind of protocols of a Zion conspiracy, are you, or is one entitled to believe in a specific endeavour to achieve a certain aim, namely to silence David Irving as being a particularly dangerous historian? Is that an acceptable concept in your mind? Can you believe there is such an endeavour ---- A. I do not myself believe there is such an endeavour, no. Q. If ---- A. But I have to say that it has not been a part of my task to investigate whether there has or not. I am not speaking, in other words, as an expert when I say that. Q. My Lord, I am wondering what use it is going to be to put these documents piecemeal to this witness. I do not think it is at this point. MR JUSTICE GRAY: None at all. I mean, his position is very clear. He does not believe that there is an international Jewish conspiracy. Therefore, he thinks that when you talk of one, you are displaying evidence of anti- semitism. That is the end of it as far as this witness goes, I think. . P-65 MR IRVING: Yes. As long as your Lordship appreciates that the time will come when I will justify whatever remarks I made. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Absolutely. MR IRVING: The only problem is we have a rather unruly witness, I think, who ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, that is not an appropriate comment at all. MR IRVING: Well, I think it was not necessary really for him to have read out that passage if he was not prepared really to be cross-examined on it in depth on his own knowledge. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, it happened. It was not unruly behaviour. A. Thank, my Lord. MR IRVING: Do you accept that this phrase "the enemies of free speech" to which the full phrase applies, "the traditional enemies" includes governments, political groups, trades unions and others as well the Jewish community leaders and other organizations? A. Sorry, where is the passage then where you say that? Are we back to the website again? Q. No, I am back to your reference in that paragraph, to paragraph 2.5.4 to "the Jewish community" which you now admit is a phrase that I do not use. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Have we got the reference in the website? . P-66 MR IRVING: Paragraph 2.5.4, my Lord, of his report: "Irving believes that there is an international campaign orchestrated by the 'Jewish community' ('our traditional enemies')" as though there is an equation between the two, an equation, shall we say? A. Well, Mr Irving, you do in your speeches repeatedly refer to "our traditional enemies", and I think it is clear, in my judgment, that by "our traditional enemies" you mean, essentially, the Jews.
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