Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day018.09 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 MR IRVING: If you will turn to page 12, my Lord, the relevance becomes plain. Did Hitler really exist, and there is a certain gentleman putting on Swastika eye glasses there. Do you have that? A. Yes. Q. Do you see anybody in the courtroom who is like or resembles the person who is putting on the Swastika eye glasses? A. It is not a very good likeness, I have to say. Q. Is he labelled as David Irving? A. Yes, he is labelled as David Irving. Q. Is he saying, "This myth of the mass murder of Jews in the death factories of Auschwitz which in fact never took place"? A. Yes, he is. Q. And does it half way down the page say: "British historian David Irving who describes himself as a mild fascist"? A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am still puzzled as to what the relevance of this is. I can see that you object to it. . P-73 What do you say it goes to? MR IRVING: The first Defendants in this case have a record of publishing books attacking me, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: If I may put it this way, so what? The way in which you can rely on it, can I try to help you, is that you can say that you are particularly distressed at the libel of which you are complaining in this action by the fact that Penguin Books keep having a go at you, and ridiculing you by that sort of portrayal, but that is a matter for your evidence. That is not a matter for cross-examination of Professor Evans. MR IRVING: My Lord, how else can I put this kind of document before the court? MR JUSTICE GRAY: You could have done it, I am not being critical of you, and you can certainly do it as far as I am concerned later on if you want to, you can simply say, "And here is a book which I read and it caused me additional distress because this is a publishing house that seems to have it in for me". MR RAMPTON: I also think, if I may say so, that we need to be notified. I am not saying there is any objection to this now but, normally speaking, if one tenders evidence to the court in modern times in support of one's case, one is obliged to tell the other side first. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a fair point as well. Shall we leave it then so far as Professor Evans is concerned and, if you . P-74 want to give evidence about it later on then you can and Mr Rampton has now been forewarned, and he can cross-examine. MR IRVING: This precise book is referred to in my claim and also in my reply to their defence, and it has been in my discovery. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not know that. MR RAMPTON: I did not either. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but I really do not think Professor Evans -- I am sympathetic, Mr Irving, and I am perhaps bending the rules in your favour a little bit, to letting you put some of the points made against you in some of the experts' reports when those experts are not going to be called to give evidence, but there is not unlimited latitude and I think this goes over the boundary, if I may say so. MR IRVING: But, with respect, my Lord, I fail to see how I could put it in otherwise because I cannot do it in my closing speech, obviously. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, you can, I have just told you, you can give evidence about it. This is not something that is relevant in cross-examination at all. I am trying to explain to you. It is something that you can adduce in your own evidence as being evidence going to the issue of damage. That is the way to deal with it, not in cross-examining any witness, and certainly not Professor . P-75 Evans. MR IRVING: When you were engaged to write this expert report, were you shown at any time any law report that had been produced by Penguin books in this country, any libel reading report on the book, on the book that is complained of? A. No. Q. When your books are published in the United Kingdom, your own books, are they subjected to a legal reading to see if they libel anyone? A. Not that I have ever been aware of. Q. So, to your knowledge, therefore, as far as you know, there was no report prepared by any firm of lawyers, reputable lawyers, on the book before it was published? A. All I can say is that I did not see any such report. I cannot answer as to whether there was one or not. Q. I am not going to be allowed to ask him questions about intermarriage then, am I? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, I am not quite sure I understand what the intended question is. MR IRVING: Well, following through the question of whether Jews would be expected to live by a different set of rules than those that they criticise? If I am criticised here for the racist ditty once again, as I have been, am I entitled in some way to introduce evidence about what the Second Defendant has written herself on precisely this . P-76 matter? MR JUSTICE GRAY: About intermarriage? MR IRVING: About intermarriage, and if so, can I do it now? MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is quite difficult to answer that question without knowing what it is you are going to produce. Have you got a copy of it because, perhaps if you would be good enough to hand it in and then I can perhaps look at it over the adjournment and you can come back to it? MR IRVING: There were several articles which the Second Defendant has written in this respect. I will yellow highlight the only part that your Lordship should read. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but do you mind coming back to it later when I have had a chance to look at it? MR IRVING: Yes. I would like to put to you Professor Levin's report now which is at page 125. A. Sorry. Mine only has 123 pages. Q. Levin or Eatwell? A. Levin. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So does mine. MR IRVING: Oh, dear! This is covering the diary entries for 1995. It is paragraph 11. A. OK. I think I can find it. Q. I am just going to take one sample paragraph? MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is around 108, I think. A. Yes paragraph 11. MR IRVING: Beginning with "Irving was also". . P-77 A. Ah, no. Q. Covering the diary entries for 1995. A. No, I am afraid I cannot find it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I cannot. MR RAMPTON: We are looking for it in our bundle. MR IRVING: This question goes purely to the accuracy of Professor Levin's style of extracting the diaries. A. Ah, right. MR RAMPTON: There is a paragraph 11 on page 107, my Lord. MR IRVING: Beginning "Irving was also"? MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I do not think it does. MR RAMPTON: No, it is not that. A. Yes, I have it here. It is at page 102, paragraph 11: "Irving was also forced to confront various incidents", is that it? MR IRVING: Yes. A. The Key West landlady evicted him from her hotel, etc., etc. Q. Yes. Would you carry on down to the next item, please? "Irving's April 13th diary entry recounts his displeasure at having his name mentioned 'in the most disparaging terms in half a dozen places' along with supposed errors in an official Canadian government report." A. Yes. Q. Are you familiar with that so-called official Canadian government report? . P-78 A. No. Q. I am going to ask that bundle E should be put to you. There is a bundle called "Global". Do we have a copy? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I know the one. MR IRVING: Let us see if we can find. It is page 116 of that bundle. MR JUSTICE GRAY: In E, has the witness got E? MR IRVING: It is a very long document beginning at page 116, headed with the words: "Confidential. David Irving, biographical information". You see at page 116? I am just taking this paragraph as one sample in advance, a foretaste, of the problems with the Levin report. So that is a document, a pretty lengthy document, headed with the words "Confidential. David Irving, biographical information"? A. Yes. Q. And that document, as we know from an affidavit by Mr Michael Wein of the Board of Deputies in this country, which his Lordship probably finds quicker than I do, was put, in fact, it was furnished to the Canadian government by this British body, would you accept that? It was furnished to the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Canada when they requested dirt on me to prevent me entering Canada? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Assume it. A. I will assume it. I mean, I do find it very difficult to answer questions on other people's reports. The reason . P-79 why there is a number of different expert witnesses for the Defence in this case is to assist the court in a number of different areas because no one person is competent to deal with them all. Q. Did you recommend Professor Levin? A. I have to say, I am not an expert on the Canadian government and ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, can I explain to you (because you may not know this) the difficulty? Mr Irving is representing himself. I am, therefore, giving him what I hope is appropriate but quite a good degree of latitude. He is accused of various things, like racism and anti-Semitism. He has been cross-examined vigorously on that topic. The Defendants had experts who produced great long reports, as you know, dealing with those topics and the Defendants have decided not to call them. Mr Irving is, therefore, in the position of being the subject of the criticisms that they make of him, albeit no longer part of the Defendants' formal case, and he wishes to put one or two points to you as being somebody who is there to be shot at, as it were. I have decided that it is proper that he should do so. I think he may be spending rather long on it than I had hoped, but I am going to let him do that. So, for the purposes of this part of the cross-examination, will you assume that the Canadians got hold of this . P-80 document in the way he suggests? A. Indeed, yes, my Lord. Q. I am sympathetic with your concern. A. I hope you will accept that I do find it very difficult. Q. I understand it, but you understand, I hope, why ---- A. Sure, yes. Q. --- I am not going to stop these questions? MR RAMPTON: I should add perhaps, my Lord, it is not quite true that we are not calling any such people. We are calling Professor Funke from Berlin. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I cannot remember now what he deals with. MR RAMPTON: He deals with exactly for Germany with what Eatwell deals with for this country and Levin for the United States. MR JUSTICE GRAY: But is he going to say when he comes, "Oh, well, I cannot deal with this sort of Canadian stuff because I am dealing with Germany". MR RAMPTON: That, I do not know -- very likely. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is the problem. MR RAMPTON: I am not in any sense trying to argue with what your Lordship just said. I just thought it necessary to add the gloss that, so far as anything to do with Germany is concerned, there will be a witness. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I had actually forgotten that, but thank you very much. But let us take this relatively briefly, but I am not stopping you. . P-81 MR IRVING: Professor, is it correct that you recommended Professor Levin for this particular task? A. No. Q. You did not? A. No. Q. Are you familiar with Professor Levin at all? A. No. Q. If you read this paragraph, you will see that it says, he has extracted from my diaries which had been in front of him exactly as they had been in front of you, and in paragraph he says: "Irving's April 13th 1995 diary entry recounts his displeasure of having his name mentioned 'in the most disparaging terms in half a dozen places' along with supposed errors in an official Canadian government report"? A. It says that, yes. Q. He says that? A. He does.
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