Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day017.04
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Is this not exactly what happened with the state of
        Israel?  Millions of these people were taken and dumped in
        Israel, so to speak, although they did it voluntarily?  It
        was an uprooting and a geographical resettlement.
   A.   The number of people coming into Israel of course came in
        gradually and there was a structure and an organization to
        arrange for and assist their reception.
   Q.   Have you seen in the German files references to the
        planning for the Madagascar settlement?  In other words,
        the necessary retraining, the agricultural specialists and
        everything being set up by the Foreign Ministry and by the
        German Navy, the Naval staff?

.          P-28

   A.   No.  I did not see some setting up retraining.  I saw them
        planning to take all the property and who would be in
        charge of gathering the Jews, and that it would be an SS
        state at the other end, but I certainly did not see, as
        part of the files on Madagascar, retraining.  There
was
        some toleration of Zionist groups in Germany setting
up
        agricultural camps in the prewar period when they were
        trying to encourage the emigration of Jews, be it to
        Palestine or anywhere else.
   Q.   Adolf Hitler repeatedly referred to the Madagascar
        solution, did he not, from 1938 in the Goebbels
diaries
        right through until July 24th 1942 in the table talk?
   A.   The Madagascar plan is a concrete plan, in which
people
        are actually working on it.  It is the period of June
to
        September 1940, but there are references to Madagascar
        earlier and later.  It is an idea that had floated in
a
        number of anti-semitic pamphlets and the Jewish expert
of
        the German Foreign Office in fact, who sort of arrived
at
        this on his own, claimed that he got the idea from
reading
        one of these pamphlets, so it was an idea in the air.
        This was one of the sort of anti-semitic fantasies
that
        this problem would disappear if all of these Jews
could be
        sent to the most distant island they could conceive
of.
   Q.   Out of mind, out of sight.  Would you agree that it
was
        Hitler's pipe dream?
   A.   I would not call it pipe dream, because I think, if

.          P-29



        England had surrendered, they would have tried to do
it.
        They would have tried to implement it just as they
tried
        to implement the Lublin reservation plan and just as
they
        tried and succeeded in implementing the death camp
plans.
   Q.   Have you seen indications in the negotiations with
France
        over the peace settlement with France, the armistice
        negotiations, that there was an attempt by the Germans
to
        secure permission for the Madagascar plan because
        Madagascar was a French territory?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I thought it was British.
   A.   No, French.
   MR IRVING:  Madagascar was French but it became British
after
        May 26th 1942, my Lord, or thereabouts, when we did
the
        usual thing.
   A.   They sent people to the French colonial ministry to
get
        information on Madagascar.  They certainly did not
need
        French permission, and I am not sure how much this was
a
        topic in armistice negotiations that were going on
after
        the armistice, I do not know how much that was a topic
        between them.
   Q.   You think it was a totally impracticable proposition,
the
        idea of sending 6 million Jews, or whatever it was, to
an
        island the size of Madagascar?
   A.   I think they would have attempted it, and I think the
        results would have been disastrous.
   Q.   Why would they have been disastrous?

.          P-30



   A.   Because I think a large percentage of the people sent
        there would have perished.
   Q.   I think that the Jews are a very sturdy people.  They
have
        shown that by their forthrightness in Palestine, have
they
        not?
   A.   I think the conditions under which they arrived there,
an
        island which the documents said clearly was to be an
SS
        state, would not have been anything remotely similar
to
        the conditions of an attempted and organized reception
of
        refugees in Palestine after 1945.
   Q.   The population of Madagascar at that time was about 1
        million?
   A.   I could not say.
   Q.   The population of Madagascar now is over 13 million?
   A.   I could not say.
   Q.   So it could have housed that number of people quite
        easily?  It is a country the size of Germany, is that
        correct?
   A.   It would depend on the circumstances and indeed
bringing
        Jews in, and all of their property taken, and under SS
        custody, I do not think one could say that they would
have
        been housed easily.  I think it would have been
lethal.
   Q.   If Hitler's intention was to exterminate all the Jews
        systematically, then why would he have had a pipe
dream of
        sending the Jews to a country like Madagascar where
they
        would have survived?

.          P-31



   A.   This is where we get to the interpretational issues of
the
        intentionalist and functionalist.  I do not believe at
        that point that he intended to destroy the Jews
        systematically.  He wanted a problem to disappear.
   Q.   When did the intention then develop?  This is
important
        I think.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  Let us get on to that.
   A.   As I say in my report, my feeling is that there were
two
        separate phases of decision making.  Both of them
stretch
        out over a period of time.
   MR IRVING:  With particular reference to Hitler, please?
   A.   It is an incremental decision making process.  We have
in
        the Spring of 1941, in preparation for Barbarossa, a
        number of his statements about what kind of war this
is
        going to be, a war of destruction, a killing of what
he
        calls Judao- Bolshevik intelligentsia and this kind of
        thing.  This results in proposals coming to him, one
of
        which is the creation of the Einsatzgruppen in its
        arrangement with the army or logistical support, the
        Commissar order, and that in the opening weeks of the
war
        this led to the selective killing of adult male Jews
in
        the regions that the Einsatzgruppen enter.
   Q.   Can I halt you there for a moment and say, when he
talks
        about the Judao-Bolshevik enemy, which half of that
        adjective weighs strongest in his mind, the Bolshevik
or
        Judao?

.          P-32



   A.   I think for him it is a package deal, but in terms of
what
        is wrong with Bolshevism is that it is the latest
        manifestation of the Jewish threat, so the Jewish
issue is
        the prime one and the Bolshevik is the current
        manifestation of this Jewish threat as he understands
it,
        because he has seen previous manifestations are the
French
        revolution and the liberals.  Christianity is the
first
        Jewish threat.
   Q.   There have been more recent manifestations, have there
        not, for example in the Spanish Civil War?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, this is getting a bit
discursive.
        Can we just pin it down a little bit?
   MR IRVING:  I am trying to pin it down.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor Browning, I know we are
        interrupting an answer and I want you to resume it,
but
        can we just anchor it to particular dates?  The date
that
        is in my mind, and I would be interested to see the
        document if possible, is the 25th May, and I think it
was
        1940 rather than 41.
   A.   The May 25th document is the Himmler guidelines for
the
        treatment of the peoples of Eastern Europe, in which
he
        wants to reauthorize the ethnic cleansing from the
western
        territories, which Frank and Goring had managed to
whittle
        down.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that not, in a sense, the start of it
all?
   A.   No, that is still in the ethnic cleansing phase.  That
is

.          P-33



        the document in which Himmler is still referring to a
        total extermination as unGerman and impossible.
   MR IRVING:  I was going point that out, yes.
   A.   It is the following year, 1941 in the spring, when
Hitler
        begins to talk about this war of destruction in the
East,
        the destruction of the Judao-Bolshevik intelligentsia,
        that leads to the selective killing of adult male Jews
in
        the opening five or six weeks of Barbarossa.
   MR IRVING:  Can I halt you there and say which documents?
Are
        you referring to the Kommissar order then?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we look at some of these documents?
   A.   We are referring to a collection of documents, the
        agreement between the military and the Einsatzgruppen
in
        which the Einsatzgruppen will get its instructions
from
        the SS but its logistic support from the military.
   Q.   Is it not possible to argue that these are purely
military
        measures at this time?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we look at the document?  I really do
        want to look at this document, the Kommissar order.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship will excuse me for interrupting.
        You will find three relevant documents cited, or
rather
        utterances by Hitler in a military or a semi-military
        context on pages 55 and 56 of Dr Longerich's first
        report.  They are all three of them in March 1941
before
        Barbarossa starts.  Perhaps Professor Browning might
be
        given that, so that he can see it.

.          P-34



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it is quite important because, if
        this is too broad brush, it is perhaps not as helpful
as
        it could be.
   MR IRVING:  I agree, my Lord, because I shall want to draw
        attention to the military nature of these orders.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do so please, but let us do it by
reference
        to the documents.
   MR IRVING:  They are criminal, there is no question, and
they
        are Draconian, but they are military.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I understand that.  So 55 and 56 of the
first
        part of Longerich, Mr Rampton?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you.
   A.   Yes.  I think, if we look at the very first one, in
fact
        he makes clear that his campaign has both a military
and
        an ideological side.  As he says, the coming campaign
is
        more than just a struggle of arms.  It will also lead
to a
        confrontation of two world views.  Then he goes on, it
is
        does not suffice to defeat the enemy army, Jewish and
        Bolshevik intelligentsia must be eliminated.  So this
        campaign from the very beginning is to be conceived as
        more than a conventional war between armies.  It has a
        strong ideological element and that ideological
element
        relates to race, and particularly to Jews, and that
tenor
        I think is very strong in his spring of 1941
        declarations.  As I say, when we then look at what was
the

.          P-35



        result of that, if one looks at the Einsatzgruppen
        reports, the overwhelming bulk of the victims who were
        shot in the first five or six weeks are ----
   Q.   Described as Jews?
   A.   --- as male Jews.  They kept some communist
        functionaries.  They regret, in a sense, most of the
        communist functionaries seem to have disappeared, the
Jews
        have not, and that these then are the main target
group.
   Q.   If this document refers to the Judao-Bolshevik
        intelligentsia, this does not explain why large
numbers of
        thousands of ordinary Jews are being taken off trains
or
        taken out of the towns and taken out of the country
side
        and machine gunned into pits They are not the
        intelligentsia in any way.  This document covers the
        intelligentsia.
   A.   No one is saying that this is a hands on micromanaged
        order.  This is a speech by Hitler in which he is
        declaring a set of expectations, and then there are
        various preparations made and proposals brought
forward
        that, in a sense, cast his vision of a war of
destruction
        into concrete terms.
   Q.   If I could rephrase that document, if this was going
the
        other way and the Russians were saying, we are going
to
        invade Washington and we are going to destroy the
        capitalist intelligentsia, and subsequently very large
        atrocities took place and millions of ordinary
Americans

.          P-36



        being machine gunned into pits, you would not link
those
        two facts, would you?
   A.   I think one could, in the sense that one would say ---
-
   Q.   Just Americans with bank accounts or otherwise fitted?
   A.   Well, one, it sets a mood in which destruction of
civilian
        populations, killing will not be limited to armed
        soldiers.

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