Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day016.18
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Yes.  But, as you are familiar, you say with the Hans
        Frank diary, both in the printed version and on the
        microfilm, will you agree that there is no diary entry
        relating to a separate meeting with Hitler in December 1941?
   A.   No.  He reports on the
16th that he had a visit with the
        Fuhrer.
   Q.   So his subsequent remarks
may or may not have been an
        allusion to what he learned from Hitler's private
        meeting?  Is this the point you are trying to
make?
   A.   I am saying there is the
possibility that, in addition to
        witnessing the talk that Goebbels records in his
diary,
        that he also had a private meeting with Hitler.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   But we cannot prove that
definitively.
   Q.   Yes.  Will you turn to
page 77 of this little bundle,
        please?
   A.   This is?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we are back on J1.
   MR IRVING:  Back on J1.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is another untranslated
German document.
   MR IRVING:  Well, my Lord ----
   A.   I have three here.  I am
not sure which one we are dealing
        with.
   MR IRVING:  In my little bundle, which is the
one with the

.          P-130



        intercepts in, your Lordship will probably find it
        translated.
   A.   J1?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  L1.  It could scarcely be more
        unsatisfactory.
   A.   Yes, I have 77.
   MR IRVING:  Do you have the text?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am afraid I have not yet.
Sorry.
   A.   I have the German.  I do
not have the...
   MR IRVING:  The English translation.
   A.   Yes, but that is all
right.
   Q.   But you have the
transcript?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry, where have we put
your documents,
        Mr Irving?  Do you know?  Was it E?
   MR IRVING:  E.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Does anybody on the Defence
side know?
        Frankly, this is so inconvenient and time
consuming.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I quite agree.  I do not know
what is even
        being referred to actually.
   MR IRVING:  The little clip of documents on
decodes.  I think
        it was called "Himmler".
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not have a J file, as you know
perfectly
        well.  J1, tab 3, page 23, my Lord.  There is no
English.
        It is some Himmler writing, my Lord.  It is the
entry of
        the 18th December 1941 where Himmler writes under
        "Fuhrer":  "Als partisanen auszurotten."

.          P-131



   MR IRVING:  Have you found it in German?
   A.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sorry.
   MR IRVING:  Can you read the words either in the
----
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, I think you had better
wait until the
        Judge finds it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I fear what may have happened
is that, unless
        I have put it back in the wrong place, my J1 is --
J1, tab
        3, page, sorry, Mr Irving?
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, page 23.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR IRVING:  Can you read the first word?
   A.   It would be  "Fuhrer
Hauptquartier Wolfsschanze", 18th day
        of the 12th month of '41 at 4 o'clock in the
afternoon,
         "Fuhrer, Judenfrage".
   Q.   Then on the left is
"Judenfrage".
   A.   "Als partisanen
auszurotten".
   Q.   How would you translate
those two things, first of all,
        the "Judenfrage"?
   A.   "Judenfrage" I would
translate as meaning a discussion on
        the Jewish question.  It would be one word as the
topic of
        the discussion and "als partisanen" and
"auszurotten"
        would be a note that he had made to remind him of
what the
        substance or conclusions of that talk had been.
   Q.   Yes.  The handwriting is
different, is it not?  I think we
        are agreed on both sides that this is the
conclusion, that

.          P-132



        they have come to the conclusion "als partisanen"
and
         "auszurotten".
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   How would you translate
that?
   A.   "To be destroyed as
partisans", depending how we translate
        "auszurotten" which has multiple meanings, but I
would
        say to exterminate or to destroy as partisans.
   Q.   "As partisans" or "like
partisans"?  I hear groans from
        the public gallery, but, in fact, this is an
important
        point.
   A.   Yes.  No, it is a good
point and I think, in fact, I have
        translated it as partisans.  In German it could be
----
   Q.   In other words, it is an
equity between "Juden" and
        "partisanen" and not a comparison which would be
"vie",
        not "als".  If it had said "vie partisanen
auszurotten",
        that would be a different meaning, would it not?
   A.   "Vie" would be in the same
way.
   Q.   In the same way as?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   But it does not say that,
does it?
   A.   It does not use vie.
   Q.   It says "als partisanen",
so the Jews who are being
        referred to here are to be liquidated as the
partisans
        they are?
   A.   No, I do not believe that
is necessarily----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I am extremely
sorry to

.          P-133



        interrupt.  I am still trying to find this.  I
have J1,
        tab 3.  There are two pages 23, neither of which
appears
        to be the document you are asking about.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is because the one on the
bottom of the page,
        which is Mr Irving's page number, has become
obliterated.
        Try a little printed 293, can I suggest?
   MR RAMPTON:  It is the one after 22, which is
legible.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which nobody has bothered to
transcribe, is
        that the problem?
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not know why.
   MR IRVING:  Transcribe or translate?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Transcribe, or indeed
translate.
   MR IRVING:  In my little clip it is transcribed,
my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I wonder why I do not have
that advantage?
   MR IRVING:  That would be in the same one as my
SS police
        decodes, I think, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is this translated anywhere or
indeed
        transcribed anywhere?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  I will find it in the bundle.
Page 11 of
        Professor Browning's report, my Lord.  It is also
in
        Longerich.
   MR IRVING:  Shall I wind back my argument a
little bit?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am afraid you will have to.
I am sorry you
        are having to do it.  It is increasingly
frustrating,
        having to deal with the documents.
   MR IRVING:  The only reason for doing this is
because

.          P-134



        I apprehend that both the defence and also
opposing
        historians pin a lot of faith on this document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.  It is a very important
document, which
        is why one would like to have it in an easier
form.
   MR IRVING:  We have only four words to go by,
Judenfrager, als
        Partisanen and auszurotten.  I am not going to
argue about
        the meaning of the word auszurotten there.  It is
quite
        plain.  But I am going to argue about the
significance of
        the word als.  Quite clearly the intention here is
that
        these Jews are to be liquidated as partisans and
not like
        partisans.  If it was to be like partisans, the
word would
        be vie Partisanen auszurotten?
   A.   And as partisan is how I
have interpreted it, that this is
        a convention, or the way in which the killing will
be
        organised or justified or disguised.
   Q.   Professor, this is a later
stage of the argument. First of
        all, I want to establish this stepping stone in my
        argument.  To make the point, to hammer home what
I mean
        by this rather subtle difference, I eat n orange
like a
        tangerine, you use the word vie.  We now have
Hitler as
        Fuhrer, as is als.  One is the equation.  The
other one is
        a comparison?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have the point.  It is
a perfectly
        comprehensible point.  What is the answer?
   MR IRVING:  Yes.  Your answer again, Professor?
   A.   As I said, it was agreed,
the annihilation or

.          P-135



        extermination of the Jews would take place, they
would be
        annihilated as if they were partisans, as
partisans, that
        will be the conventional way in which they speak
about it
        or the guise under which it will be done.
   Q.   But then the correct
German would be vie and not als?
   A.   No.  If you were going to
kill them, the operation, we all
        use the same operational methods against them, but
they
        did not because they killed women and children,
partisans
        they did not, so it is not we will do it in the
same way,
        but we will kill the one as if they were the
other, as the
        cover under which to kill the other.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The point that is being put is
that als does
        not mean as if.  There is another German
expression for
        that.  Not just vie, there is another one as well,
I
        think.
   A.   I think vie would be, we
will kill them in the same way as
        we kill partisans.  It applies to an identical
method.
        The als I would interpret as the justification for
it or
        the cause for it.
   MR IRVING:  Perhaps I could put in two different
ways?  This is
        like when you have a dictionary which gives two or
three
        different meanings of the word in different orders
of
        likelihood, and the one that I give is the primary
        meaning, but there is a possible secondary meaning
which
        is the one you are offering?
   A.   I do not know in which
order they came in the dictionary

.          P-136



        so I cannot say which is first or second.
   Q.   I know which order they
come in the German language, and
        this is that als means as direct equivalence,
whereas vie
        means like, which is not direct equivalence.
   A.   I have translated as.  We
will both agree we are using the
        primary----
   Q.   You were using the correct
translation and I am drawing
        attention to the significance of that.  They are
to be
        liquidated as the partisans that they are, and
that is the
        meaning?
   A.   That is adding a whole
series of phrases that is the birth
        of your imagination.  There is nothing in here.
   Q.   The burden of the word as
or als, whether we like it or
        not, and if we are going to make this a key
document of
        our argument, it is dangerous to try and suggest
that,
        well, the secondary meaning is probably the one I
am
        looking for because that is the one that fits in
with my
        theory.
   A.   I have used the primary
word.  It is you who are inventing
        a whole series of words that do not exist on the
page, and
        that is the sheerest fantasy in which I do not
share.
   Q.   I do not want to labour
the point, but als is definitely
        an equivalence rather than a comparison, is it
not?
   A.   I have translated it that way, but I did not add a whole
        further series of words which you have chosen to add which
        have no documentary basis.

.          P-137

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