Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day013.04 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 MR RAMPTON: It does not exist, Mr Irving? A. It may not be a signal. It may be what Karl Wolff reported. Karl Wolff was with him at that time. I have referenced Karl Wolff in footnote 43 which your Professor Evans has overlooked. Q. The first reference you give -- I am only going to ask this once more -- is 3052, is it not? A. Yes. Q. The reader will suppose that that is a reference to the text of the Heydrich telex? . P-28 A. Well, no. The 43 refers to everything from the beginning of that paragraph, "What of Himmler and Hitler?" onwards. Q. Mr Irving, the reference you give for the Heydrich telex is 3052, is it not? A. One of the two references, yes. Q. Yes. It so happens that the true Heydrich telex is 3051? A. It so happens that a Heydrich telex is 3051. Q. It so happens that 30512 has nothing whatever to do with Reichskristallnacht at all? A. Yes. Q. What do you think is the probability -- that had you some other document which has disappeared which had the No. 3052 on it? A. My documents have not disappeared. As you are familiar, I have given all my documents to the German archives. I have provided to you what relics I have, what remnants I have, of my document collection. Q. Well, now I would offer you the same opportunity, Mr Irving, as you kindly offered to us. You find 3052 and the text of a Heydrich telex which carries the information which you have put in the book. A. Well, perhaps if you have the Karl Wolff's statement from the Institute files No. 317, then you will find precisely the content that I referred to. Q. Can we move on now, please? A. If you thought I was wrong, you would have actually . P-29 produced to the court 317, the Karl Wolff statement, and said, "Mr Irving, can you find that in 317?" MR JUSTICE GRAY: You are perfectly entitled to do that yourself, but it does not, I think it is fair to say, meet Mr Rampton's point which is that one of your references is 3052. A. One of the references has a digit wrong, this is correct. Q. And the ball, if I may say so, is in your court to produce the document that you say is 3052. A. If I can do so, having given all my records away, this is true, but I shall certainly attempt to do so. MR RAMPTON: Now, Mr Irving, I want to come to the aftermath of Reichskristallnacht. I want to move on now to the aftermath, the next day, starting with Mr Goebbels -- Dr Goebbels, I do beg his pardon. Can we start, please, and I promised I would stick Professor Evans and that is what I am going to, at page 281 of Professor Evans' report, please. A. What does he mean by "the inevitable Goebbels diary"? Does that not suggest a mind cast on the part of your expert in paragraph 1? Q. If you look at paragraph 2, please, Mr Irving -- you can ask Professor Evans any number of questions you like subject to his Lordship's control, but I am not going to answer your questions, I am afraid. Paragraph 2 on page 281. . P-30 A. Yes. Q. "In his account of the events of 10th November 1938, Goebbels wrote: 'New reports rain down the whole morning. I consider with the Fuhrer what measures should be taken now. Let the beatings continue or stop them? That is now the question'." You, when you wrote about this in your Goebbels book, said: "Goebbels went to see Hitler to discuss what to do next. There is surely an involuntary hint of apprehension in the phrase". Why did you write that? A. I am, first of all, checking to see the original German text because he has not provided it to us, has he, or has he? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Check it by all means. If we have to go through it, we will have to go through it, but we are trying to avoid doing that. A. Well, the reason for that is the translation of the word "now". Q. You can tell us. A. Can you confirm that the word he has used for "now" is not "nun" but "nunmehr"? MR RAMPTON: I have no idea. A. I am telling you -- I have a pretty good memory of these things. Q. Why does it matter? A. Why does it matter? Indeed. So what? "Nunmehr" conveys . P-31 the hint of apprehension. "What do we do now?" Q. You translate it in your book -- what you write is 277 of Goebbels: "As more ugly bulletins rained down on him the next morning, November 10th 1938, Goebbels went to see Hitler to discuss 'what to do next'"? A. Indeed, "nunmehr". Q. What is the apprehension in that? A. Well, if you understood German and you knew the nuances of the German language, and any German sitting in this room would know there is a difference between the words "nun" nad "nunmehr". Am I correct? Is that the word used? Q. Mr irving, will you answer my question? Did you write, "He went to discuss with Hitler what to do next"? A. "What to do now" and "what to do next", what is the difference? You explain to the court. Q. It might be right if the phraseology were apt to convey the impression, "Oh, dear. Whatever shall we do now?" but that is not what you translated it as? A. I am trying to give the difference between "now", between "nun" and "nunmehr", and any German in this courtroom will know there is a strong difference. "Nunmehr" means "now more than ever" and this, I suspect, is why Professor Evans has not provided the original German here. MR JUSTICE GRAY: As a matter of fact, he has. Note 104, page 282, he says the original German is "nunmehrige" which I think is the same as "nunmehr", in fact? . P-32 A. Well, I wish we had had the entire text, but he has -- -- Q. You are only quarrelling with that one word, as I understand it? A. Well, indeed, but there is big difference, of course, between "nun" and "nunmehr", and I can only confirm that any German will confirm this. MR RAMPTON: The German is, Mr Irving -- excuse my pronunciation once again, but I will read it slowly.. A. What page is the German? Q. "Den ganzen Morgen regnet es neue Meldungen". End of line. The next line: "Ich uberlege mit dem Fuhrer unsere nunmehrigen Masnahmen". That is "our next measures", is it not? A. I am looking at the original translation in bundle L2 on page 3, the original German. Q. It is on page 2, I think. A. "Den ganzen Morgen regnet es neue Meldungen ... unsere nunmehrigen Masnahmen". There you are, "nunmehr". Q. Yes, "our next steps"? A. But I have to try to explain once again, because you do not hesitate also to keep repeating yourself, that "nun" and "nunmehr" have two totally different nuances. "Nunmehr" in German means "now more than ever". Q. What does it mean, "I discussed with the Fuhrer our next steps"? A. "... unsere nunmehrigen Masnahmen". . P-33 Q. Yes, "our next steps"? A. Yes, "what steps we should now take more than ever". Q. What is apprehensive about that? A. The adding of the word "mehr" to "nun". Q. Then he goes on: "Weiterschlagen lassen oder abstoppen". "Shall we go on thrshing them or stop" or "Shall we let the thrashing go on or stop it", yes? "That is now the question"? A. "Weiterschlagen lasen oder abstoppen", that is right. Q. "Das ist nun die Frage"? A. "That is now the question". Q. Exactly. What is apprehensive about that? A. Because he has been summoned to see the Hitler because the whole of Germany is in flames, messages coming in from diplomatic missions all around the world about it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: But they are contemplating letting it go on? A. Goebbels is contemplating letting it gone on, "What are we going to do now?" This is Goebbels' diary, my Lord, not Hitler. Goebbels has been summoned before Hitler like a schoolboy who has painted something on the wall. Q. Well, who is meant to be being apprehensive? I took it to be Goebbels. A. Goebbels is apprehensive, yes. MR RAMPTON: About what? A. That he had been summoned to see Hitler. Perhaps I should sketch in in two lines the background? Goebbels has been . P-34 a very bad for the last six months. He has been caught red handed in an appalling matrimonial scandal. He has been threatened with this missile. He has contemplated suicide. He thought he was doing Hitler a favour with this little outrage and, to his horror, he has found out he has done the exact opposite. He has been summoned before Hitler and Hitler is now showing him the diplomatic messages that have come in. Within a matter of an hour or two, Goebbels has had to issue a telegram which is on the very next page, or page 279 of my book produces a facsimile: "Everything is to be stopped immediately. All the orders I issued yesterday are cancelled". Am the I right? Q. No, you are not right, Mr Irving. You are not right in your thesis. You are right in what that document says and it is sent to the propaganda chiefs. All that has been decided is, well, for the sake of foreign opinion and public opinion, we had better stop smashing up Jewish shops and killing Jewish people? A. On the contrary, this document which I reproduce in a facsimile is sent to precisely the people he ordered the day before to start all the pogrom. Q. So you say. We had that argument yesterday ---- A. Well, you keep saying "so I say", but I am the one who wrote the book. Q. Well, I do say and I do not accept it, Mr Irving. We went . P-35 through it yesterday. It is quite obvious that I do not accept it. It is no good repeating it. We have been through it. The judge will decide the question and then see what happened in the next day's diary entry. If you pass over to paragraph 4 on the same page, 282 of Evans -- the German, if you want it, is on tab 3 of the Reichskristallnacht file. It is the beginning of the diary entry, as I expect you know. "Following this first conversation with Hitler on morning of 10th, Goebbels drafted an order to bring the pogrom to a halt. 'Yesterday', he wrote on the 11th in his diary, 'Berlin. There, all proceeded fantastically. One fire after another. It is good that way. I prepare an order to put an amend the actions'". That is the one you have just told us about, Mr Irving. "'It is now just enough ... In whole country the synagogues have burned them. I report to the Fuhrer at the Osteria'." The German is printed at the bottom of the page if you want to look at it. The "Osteria" was a restaurant in Munich, I think, was it not? A. It is still there, yes. Q. I do not mind. It was, was it not? A. Yes. Q. And if we turn over the page, we can see what Goebbels reports of his meeting with Hitler at the Osteria sometime, presumably, on the 10th, in paragraph 5 on page . P-36 283: "At the Osteria, Goebbels presented Hitler with his draft order to stop the pogram. His diary entry continued: 'I report to the Fuhrer in the Osteria. He agrees with everything. His views are totally radical and aggressive. The action itself has taken place without any problems. 17 dead. But no German property damaged. The Fuhrer approves my decree concerning the ending of the actions, with small amendments. I announce it via the press and raid. The Fuhrer wants to take very sharp measures against the Jews. They must themselves put their businesses in order again. The insurance companies will not pay them a thing. Then the Fuhrer wants a gradual expropriation of Jewish businesses"? A. Now, what holes can you pick in my account of that?
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