Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day010.06 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 Q. Coming out of these non-existent holes in the roof, is that correct? A. Whatever. What happened was that when the transports were smaller, one of the big problems in the gassing the Germans had was that normally they had to fill up the whole gas chamber for the gassing really to go efficient. So by actually dividing the gas chamber up into two, they could gas a group in the small gas chamber at the back, and then they could use the front room after the gassing for work which otherwise would be done in the much more tight confinement of actually the little porch or up at the exit of the elevator in the incineration room. Q. Can I ask what your source is for that statement? A. The source for the statement that there were two gas chambers? MR JUSTICE GRAY: That they divided the gas chamber into two and used one half only for gassing? MR IRVING: Is this eyewitnesses again or do you have documents . P-45 that support that? A. No, there are eyewitnesses for that. Q. Yes. In other words, you do not have a document apart from these sketches from memory ---- A. I mean, at a certain moment if eyewitnesses say that the gas chamber was divided in two at the end of 1943, and Mr Bacon, for example, testifies to it that there has been a gassing in the Eichmann trial, that he came into the gas chamber to warm up, and that there has been a gassing in the second gas chamber right at the back, Mr Bacon did not need to prove one way or another about what was happening where. I mean, he was a kid who came into that gas, into that gas chamber. Q. Can we linger on No. 7 because I am very puzzled on this business of people extracting the teeth and cutting the hair inside the gas chamber with the bodies still piled where they lay? A. No, the bodies -- we do not know exactly ---- Q. He is telling us here in this picture, is he not? You yourself drew attention to what otherwise we might not have noticed -- thanks very much -- the wire mesh in the background? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think the evidence is, and you may not accept it, that these bodies had been moved from the half of the gas chamber where they had been gassed into the other half where the removal of the hair and the . P-46 teeth took place. MR IRVING: And they just left this wire mesh column for no reason -- it was kind of left over from ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was historical. I think that is the evidence. A. The second gas chamber -- there were two gas chambers, they were right one behind the other -- the second one was used also when there were transports. We have a small one at the back. I mean, basically, half of the original gas chamber is used for small transports and the two are used for big transports. Of course, all the Zyklon-B introduction devices remain in that first room because the room is on occasions also used. Q. And you notice that none of these people are wearing gas masks of any kind, although they are handling bodies that have clearly been contaminated with hydrogen cyanide? A. I do not want at the moment to go into exactly ---- Q. Well, I do because this is an important point. A. The testimony is that people were wearing gas masks when they went into the gas chamber itself to take the bodies out; that when these bodies were out, the dentists, the so-called dentists, did not need any gas masks any more to handle the bodies. Q. They had been subjected to doses of hydrogen cyanide, hundreds of bodies, and yet these people are just handling them like this? . P-47 A. And the hydrogen cyanide by that time had been taken out of the gas chamber by ventilators. Q. How long did that procedure last then? I mean, we are trying to get some idea of the time scale of the operation involved. A. Around half an hour. Q. For all the hydrogen cyanide to evaporate off these bodies so these people could work on them quite harmlessly? A. The ventilators, again eyewitness testimony says that the ventilators after the gassing that took around 20, 30 minutes to take the gas out of the gas chamber. Q. Professor van Pelt, are you aware of a news item in the newspapers about two years ago, an American student had committed suicide with cyanide and when the rescue workers went in, the paramedics went in, nine of them were overcome by the fumes and were hospitalized afterwards? A. I did not read the Canadian papers, I am sorry to say. Q. This was an American newspaper and reported in the European press as well. I have the press clipping if you are interested. Nine of them were overcome by fumes from one body of a man who had committed suicide with cyanide, and they had to be hospitalized. So, on the face of it, this is quite an improbable picture we are looking at, if that is true? A. I think eyewitnesses will say that this is, indeed, what happened. People with gas masks go in the gas chamber to . P-48 remove the bodies and people without gas masks work on the bodies after they have been removed from the gas chamber. Q. Have you also read the testimony of some of the eyewitnesses, that they went in there smoking cigarettes and they went in there eating sandwiches, despite the gas masks? A. My Lord, you will find my discussion on that whole issue in my expert report. Mr Irving at the moment is referring to an argument which has been made by Professor Faurisson. It is based on a complete falsification, misreading, misrepresentation, of the testimony of Mr Hirst. Q. Of Mr Hirst? MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can come to that in due course, no doubt ---- MR IRVING: In other words, some eye witnesses we have to discount. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- but at the moment, Mr Irving -- just listen to me; I would like to get some structure into it if we can -- we are taking Professor van Pelt through the reasons other than eyewitnesses for saying that ---- MR IRVING: This, of course, is clearly an eyewitness again, is it not? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, will you just listen? We are taking Professor van Pelt through his evidence for saying that crematorium No. 9ii) was used as a gas chamber, . P-49 evidence apart from the eyewitnesses. We have seen the photographs. We have now seen the Olaire drawings. Can we move on and see whether there is any other evidence he relies on; if not, you can move on. MR IRVING: My Lord, I would like just to linger two or three more minutes with the Olaire drawings because I have not really had my say on them. MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. MR IRVING: First of all, it is not correct that this is just another form of eyewitness evidence, if I can put it like that, Professor van Pelt? This is an eyewitness who has the capability of drawing as well as speaking about what he claims to have seen, is that correct? A. Yes. Q. He is an eyewitness. Would you say that he is an eyewitness who is normally balanced and in command of his faculties or is there anything odd about him? A. I am not a psychologist. I think that these drawings, these drawings certainly seem to suggest, especially when we look at the architectural plans, when we look at the section of the building, that his powers of observation were perfectly in tact. Q. I must say there is a difference between the architectural plan which he provided in 1946 and the rather more lurid pictures and, of course, you know what I am talking about, earlier. Would you look at the picture No. 5 which is the . P-50 exterior of the crematorium with flames and smoke belching from the chimney. Now, would you agree that these crematoria, in which the Germans had invested a great deal of money in building, would have been built to the latest design standards? A. Design standards of what, Mr Irving? Q. For crematoria, following all the appropriate technical specifications? A. Mr Irving, we know very well that the Auschwitz crematoria did not follow the usual civilian crematoria design standards. Q. Is there one single photograph, apart from the forged one put by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in their brochure (which they have admitted is a forgery) showing the chimneys of the Auschwitz crematoria smoking? A. There is one ---- Q. Even smoking, let alone flaming like this one? A. There is one photo, as far as I remember, in the images of the Hungarian action of 1944 which actually shows some smoke coming from a crematorium chimney. Q. This is the photograph I am referring to which the Simon Wiesenthal Centre have admitted now because they have been shown the comparison with the original, unretouched photograph. Can I describe this photograph to you? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you know about this? A. No, I do not know about the challenge to this photograph. . P-51 MR IRVING: Well, it is a photograph showing prisoners arriving from the Hungarian action in the foreground, and in the background can be seen a chimney of a crematorium. On the original photograph the chimney is not smoking, but in the version posted by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in its publicity smoke has mysteriously appeared? A. I refer to the published version of the photo and the copy of the photo, which actually is a copy of the photo, a print of the photo, which I have seen in Auschwitz. I have never seen the Simon Wiesenthal publication. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, the position is you will have to prove that in due course. MR IRVING: I will bring those photographs to court, my Lord. (To the witness): One more question about the Olaire pictures. Of course, have you seen all the Olaire pictures or just the ones you have produced at the court? A. I have seen all the Olaire pictures. Q. Yes, would it be right to say that he has a prurient interest in the female form? A. I do not know how this is relevant. I mean... Q. Concerning his mental balance. A. I think ---- Q. Or the purpose for which these illustrations were made -- let us put it like that. A. I think that if one would judge the ability of someone to bear witness on the basis of their interest in the female . P-52 form, I think that not many people would be able to give evidence. Q. Would you agree that in almost every single one of these pictures he has drawn, for whatever purpose -- there is another photograph that I have given there which is not in your collection -- there are naked women full frontal on to the artist's brush, so to speak, and that there is no reason whatsoever that he should have made these pictures in that way unless he intended to sell them. Is that a fair speculation? A. Mr Irving, I do not want to comment on what I understand your suggestion is that we are dealing here with a pornographer. I think it is absolutely not worth me to go into that. Q. I did not use the word "pornography". I said that his purpose in drawing these pictures was to produce a marketable item which he could sell in the media at some time? A. Mr Irving, you will have prove to me, if you want to me to comment on it, that he ever tried to sell these things in the media. Q. Let me put the question this way. Is it likely that nearly all the females who became victims of the bestialities of the Nazis in Auschwitz were nubile, young and attractive? A. No, it is not very likely.
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