Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.19 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 MR RAMPTON: So would I, particularly since, as one can see from the original document -- I am not asking your Lordship to look at it -- the conference about the Mischling and the Mischeyer is actually headed "Ent Losung der Judenfrage" whereas one notices that Lammers' statement, or the note of Lammers' statement, refers only . P-170 to the "Losung". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, there would be many Juden frager, would there not? MR RAMPTON: Yes, precisely, of which I have no doubt the mischlinge one was a knotty one, because I think the evidence is that Hitler himself did not think that it was a good idea to split marriages and send what might be called half and halfs off on the trains. That is right, is it not? A. If you were to pursue this line of argument, the document would say that the solution of this Jewish problem would need to be postponed. Q. Exactly, Mr Irving. A. He is talking about the solution of the Jewish problem postponed. Q. That is another problem with the document. You would have expected it to say diese Juden frager? A. Of this Jewish problem, but it does not, of course. Q. I quite agree. A. So that does not help you very much. Q. I am not looking for help, Mr Irving. You see, you have completely the wrong end of the stick. A. I am trying to help you because I am enjoying this. Q. You are not helping me at all because you are always punting to the same end of the pond. I am not. I am in the middle and I am looking at all the lily pads around me . P-171 and wondering what the answer is. I do not think it is clear that this is a general statement by Hitler in the context of the file in which it was found, which would be a floating statement of no significance at all, that Hitler has said yesterday, "Stop all this talk about mischlinge because I have said that the whole Jewish question is to go off to the end of the war". I do not think that is the only possible explanation. I think anybody who leaps on that band wagon and ignores all the others is not being a respectable and competent historian. A. You are not, with respect, being a respectable and competent counsel if you ignore the document that immediately precede this note, which is Schlegelberger writing to Lammas, saying that ugly things seem to be looming ahead, I really think I ought to talk about this with you before we go any further. Lammas then writes back to him saying, no, the Fuhrer does not want to be bothered with this kind of thing. He wants all the Jewish problem postponed until the end of the war. Q. You say, write back. Where is Schlegelberger's signature on that thing? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Could I see it, because are you assuming I know. What is this note about ugly things going on because that would be very relevant, it seems to me? A. It is immediately preceding this in the file. MR JUSTICE GRAY: In the web site? . P-172 A. Well, it is certainly in the actual file, which is the file here. While they are looking for it, I will just get it to the front. It would be on the web site definitely. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may not have been reproduced. MR RAMPTON: I am certainly not aware of it. A. It is probably page 1564 of the web site just off the top of my head. Yes, here it is. If I can just read it straight out while you are looking for it, my Lord, it is March 12th 1942. This is six days after the conference. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I have the original German here, I think. Can you just identify it and then give it to his Lordship to look at? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we have found it in the web site. MR RAMPTON: I have not got the web site file. I just want to make sure that we are talking about the same document? A. It is from the same Justice Ministry file. It is paginated in that series 01/109, in the original wartime series, it is just two documents ahead of the Schlegelberger note, dated March 12th 1942: "Dear Reichs Minister Dr Lammas, I have just been briefed by my personal assistant on the outcome of the conference of March 6th concerning the treatment of Jews and mixed race Jews. I am still awaiting the official protocol. After the briefing by my personal assistant there appear to be decisions in preparation which for the larger part I consider to be quite out of . P-173 the question, quite impossible, as the outcome of the conferences at which an adviser or a personal assistant of your house has also taken part will form the basis for the Fuhrer's decision. I would urgently request that I can have in good time a conversation with you in person, a personal conversation with you, about the matter. As soon as the protocol of the session is in front of me, I will allow myself to telephone you and to ask you whether and when we can have that talk." MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, that seems to me to run quite counter to the proposition for which you contend because that is dealing entirely with the problem of Juden and mischlinge? A. Jews and mixed race. "The Jews and" I think is significant there. But, be that as it may, my Lord, even if you are right, and I am sure your Lordship is right, I hesitate to say that your Lordship is wrong in that matter, but, even if you are right, what I am saying is, and I have reason for saying this, that the outcome was the note from Lammas to Schlegelberger, which effectively says that the Fuhrer does not want to be bothered about this, he wants this whole thing, he wants the solution to the Jewish problem postponed until the war is over. If I just continue that, we also know from interrogations of people who were at the conferences that Lammas came back to them and said he had mentioned it to the Fuhrer with . P-174 precisely that outcome. The Fuhrer said he did not want to be bothered with this kind of stuff, postpone it all until the war is over. MR JUSTICE GRAY: All of that points, so far as I see it at the moment, to this having been the narrow question of, if one can call it, mischlinge? A. Juden und mischlinge. Q. I follow that that phraseology is used, but that does not seem to me to be tremendously significant, given the whole context of the reference to the conference on 6th March. A. I appreciate this is one possible interpretation if you ignore the fact that the Schlegelberger memorandum says die losung der juden frager (?), the solution of the Jewish problems, not this Jewish problem. Q. I have the point about der rather than dies. MR RAMPTON: That points in one direction, Mr Irving. The other considerations point in the opposite direction, including, if I may -- I do not know, I am completely ignorant but I am told that this is a good point by those like you that have inspected the file. The file number on the top right-hand side of what you call the Schlegelberger memo, I prefer for safety sake to call it the Freisler document, is 153. A. Yes, with the handwritten number 153 on it? Q. No. There is stamp on the one I have. A. Yes, but the one I am looking at is stamped on the left. . P-175 Q. I know you are looking at your web site copy. A. No. I am looking at the one on the left. This is the original document with the stamp on the left. Q. So you say, but the other document with 12th March 1942 has the stamp number 155 on it. A. Well I do not have ---- Q. You will find it in H1 (vii) at page 371. A. Previously, of course, you could not find it. Now you can find it. Yes. Q. There is no evidence, is there, that these file page numbers are contradictory? One is 109 followed by 111. A. This is why we cannot be absolutely certain as to exactly which sequence within the month they are shuffled. Q. You cannot assert with any confidence that the anonymous undated Freisler document was generated or prompted by the dated and signed note of the 12th March 1942, can you? A. Within the space of a month you can be pretty certain. You can say it was after March 6th. Q. If this relates to the question of the mischlinge at all? A. Well, it was within this file and we know where it is placed in the file, and there are no documents outside that time frame, so on a high degree of probability that is the time, and we know when, reasonable from other documents, you know when the conversation took place between Schlegelberger and Lammas. Q. Now, Mr Irving, consider a problem of real substance. . P-176 A. The problem of real substance is that I am the only historian to mention these documents. Everybody else pretends they do not exist, although they have ---- Q. Mr Irving, you have grasped it with your usual boyish enthusiasm because you think it acquits Adolf Hitler of any hand in the mass murder of Jews. A. Which is precisely why the other historians have not even mentioned it. Q. Mr Irving, that was not what I was going to ask you about. The problem you do not seem to have faced up to is this. I am going to ask you a question first. What in your version of history was in Hitler's mind the entlosung (?), and we notice this document does not use that word, to be put into effect after the war in Hitler's mind in March 1942? A. Well, at this time, of course, as you know, I will say he was talking about deportation overseas, or deportation beyond the pale. Q. As a first step to that desirable end beyond the pale, were the deportations from the Outreich and the Protectorate? A. Yes. Q. Those had already begun in September or October 1941? A. That is correct. Q. What on earth then would it mean for a high ranking Civil Servant such as Lammas to say: Hitler wants that which has . P-177 already been put into effect on his own orders of September 1941 to be postponed until the end of the war? A. Can you look at the full text of the document? The full text of document says: "The Fuhrer has repeatedly said that he wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until the war is over and for this reason he does not want all this continued talking about it. He does not want all this to-ing and fro-ing within the ministry, but this is at the height of the military crisis". Q. That goes back right into the circle which his Lordship has drawn for you, does it not? If it is a general statement by Hitler about the losung of the Jewish question which is to be treated as evidence of Hitler's intention as at the 3rd or 12th March 1942, then it is a nonsense, because that entlosung has already been put into operation. It started in October 1941. MR JUSTICE GRAY: And it is still in operation, would that that not be right. MR RAMPTON: Yes, and it is still going on. A. Yes, it is. Q. It makes absolute nonsense. If, on the other hand, this is a limited reference to the mischlinge question being discussed by Heydrich and his colleagues, then it makes perfect sense, it does not say that but this is the proper interpretation, this part of the losung has to be deferred. Hitler is not interested in it. . P-178 A. That is not exactly what it says. It does not say this solution of this Jewish problem, and does not this document also therefore destroy your Riegner document which you quoted to the court with Adolf Hitler allegedly saying he wanted everything finished this year, for which purpose they are using the prussic acid, I am sure you remember the content of the Riegner document, which is only a week or two after this one. If you were right, this would destroy that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I would not go down that road. MR RAMPTON: I am not going to. I am not picking up that gauntlet. A. Can I also remind you, of course, that this is not Hitler's word? This is second hand already. This is Schlegelberger being told by Lammas what Hitler had said to him, with Schlegelberger making the note. Q. Let us try and get a little common sense into this, shall we? A. Do not attach too much importance to whether it is losung or entlosung that is the word that is being used. Q. I am not, but it is one of the little things that, though significant to an historian, is not decisive. I am not saying that. Let us use common sense and objectivity. During this period and for seven months up to this period, according to you, Hitler's version of the losung or the entlosung has been in top gear. . P-179 A. It has been gathering momentum, first one City then another. Q. It would not make any sense for Lammas to report that Hitler wants what is now taking place on his command to be postponed until the end of war, would it? So we are not talking about any general losung plainly? A. We are talking about the overall completion of every I dotted and every T crossed.
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