Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.16
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The difficulty that I see is I have all those
        articles and I do not want to plough through them
        particularly, and I would have no problem, unless
        Mr Irving tells me he does not like this idea, in your
        sidelining, or somebody on your team, the passages on
        which you rely.  The problem arises because, as I
        understand Mr Irving, he says that in a number of the
        statements you rely on he has been taken out of context.
   MR RAMPTON:  Then I will have to do it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, heaven forbid, but that is right,
        Mr Irving, is it not?
   A.   If it is relevant, my Lord, yes, then we ought to look at
        it, but I thought that the statement that I just made
        would have helped your Lordship, if I make a crystal clear

.          P-135

        statement of denial there of an element of the Holocaust.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I had better just highlight it whilst I
        am thinking of it.  Sorry.
   A.   One could have operated with that statement in lieu of
        looking at all the passages.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I think, well, I will not say that.
I
        think it is up to Mr Rampton to decide what course he
        takes.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  I am open to guidance, if not actually of
        being told what to do.  I want to save time.  At the
same
        time I must make absolutely sure (a) that your
Lordship
        has the relevant parts of the evidence and, quite
frankly,
        I cannot ask you to sit down and read all these
        transcripts; (b) that Mr Irving is given a fair chance
of
        dealing with what I shall say about his conduct in
this
        regard at the end of the case.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  My feeling is it probably can be dealt
with
        without actually ploughing through the individual
        transcripts.  You might want to take some what you
would
        describe as prime examples.  Beyond that, I think it
may
        be down to me to read them.
   MR RAMPTON:  I will do that.  I will need help from my
learned
        junior who is the master of these, if I can call her
that,
        mistress, if you like, of these transcripts.
   A.   I think they are very similar.  It is always the same
        gramophone record.  It may just be embedded in a
different

.          P-136



        amount of verbiage.
   MR RAMPTON:  Could your Lordship and Mr Irving be provided,
        please, with file D2(i)?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I hope I have it.  What I am going to try
to
        do, my Lord, is to take what your Lordship calls a
prime
        example from each year to start with and see how we
get
        on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That would be very helpful.
   MR RAMPTON:  Could your Lordship and Mr Irving please turn
to
        tab 4 in this file?  This, Mr Irving, is a speech made
in
        Toronto, I know not on what date, but in August, 13th
        August 1988.  My Lord, this file has an index, not an
        index, a contents page, two contents pages, at the
        beginning from which one can see that tab 4 is an
audio
        cassette marked "Toronto".  But I do not know,
therefore,
        what the audience was.  I will ask Mr Irving.  (To the
        witness):  Could you tell us, please, Mr Irving, who
the
        audience was on this date?
   A.   Human beings.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is not a conspicuously helpful
answer?
   A.   Well, my Lord, I have no idea who was in the audience,
        without wishing to be disrespectful.
   MR RAMPTON:  Was it an event arranged by somebody else?
   A.   Without looking at my diary, I cannot tell you who was
        there.  Sometimes I spoke 150 times a year.
   Q.   40 to 50 -- who lives at Kentville?

.          P-137



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr & Mrs Weisner?
   A.   Mr & Mrs Weisner, I think it was a private soiree in
their
        home probably.
   MR RAMPTON:  255, I am reading from your diary for that
day:
         "3.00 p.m. function, audience of 40 to 50, in
stiflingly
        humid basement room, no air conditioning"?
   A.   I remember and there was a colossal thunder storm that
        evening.
   Q.   I do sympathise.  Also there are some remarks about
the
        gate of $350 and Ernst, that is Ernst Zundel's, book
sales
        $600.  Our book sales $180."  Who is the "we" in
"our"?
        Whose book is that?
   A.   I think Mr Zundel bought a number of books off me as
        I sold books all around the world, and he runs a
        bookshop.  So I divided it up between this bulk sale
of
        books to him and bulk and books that we sold.  That
was
        myself and my assistant.
   Q.   So in this stiflingly hot basement in August in
Toronto,
        if you turn to page 6 ----
   A.   I think it was probably Ottawa rather than Toronto.
   Q.   I cannot help about that.  It has "Toronto" on the
front.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Canada anyway?
   A.   It was Ottawa.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is Miss Rogers fault.  I will scratch out
        "Toronto" and put -- sorry about that -- "Ottawa"?
   A.   Manipulate the place back to Ottawa, shall we?

.          P-138



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just negligence, I think.
   MR RAMPTON:  We will sort this out later.  It is just a
waste
        of time.  It does not matter.  It is the words that
        matter.  Whether it is an audience of 130 or an
audience
        of 50, it is still quite a lot of people?
   A.   Well, you asked me who the audience was and that is
why
        you, obviously, attached importance to it.
   Q.   Yes, I wondered what the occasion was.  Some friends
of
        Mr Zundel's who paid at the door to come in, is that
        right?
   A.   No, it was the friends of the Weisners.
   Q.   The Weisners?
   A.   The Weisners who live in Ottawa, and they invited me
to go
        and address their family and friends, basically.
   Q.   Yes.  Were these family and friends mostly German
        speakers?
   A.   I am not anti-German.  I dislike this kind of ethnic
        slur.
   Q.   No, no, no, Mr Irving, nor am I.
   A.   Anti-Germanism is as bad as anti-Semitism, I think.
   Q.   That is a matter of opinion.  Can you please turn to
page
        6 of this document?
   A.   Page 6?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   There is a parenthetical note, (286).  That must be
some

.          P-139



        kind of mark on the recording.  You say this: "But
just
        imagine the omelette on their faces", they are the
        orthodox historians, are they, or who?
   A.   Well, probably like saying I like seeing egg on the
        historians' faces.  The court may have gained that
        impression also over the last few days.
   Q.   I would have to trace it a way back and I really ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not let us worry.
   MR RAMPTON:  "Imagine the omelette on their faces if we
managed
        to unmask the other six milliion lie".  What do you
mean
        by the words "the other 6 million lie"?  "This is the
        prospect that is now opening up in front of me"?
   A.   Oh, because the previous day I had been talking about
        Derstern spending $6 million on buying the Adolf
Hitler
        diaries.
   Q.   So this is what you call the Holocaust lie, is it not?
   A.   Well, it is obviously a play on words between $6
million
        and 6 million people, yes.
   Q.   But you frequently referred to what you might call the
        received view about Auschwitz and the Holocaust
generally
        as a lie, have you not?
   A.   I do not think you will find many occasions, Mr
Rampton.
        This is not being spoken from a script.  This is an
        extemporary talk to a group of fans and friends in the
        south.
   Q.   And, rather like Heinreich Himmler -- I mean no
offence by

.          P-140



        that, but we looked at something this morning -- the
more
        apt, I suggest, to portray your true inner thoughts
than a
        carefully crafted script?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is what he says in the next
sentence.
   MR RAMPTON:  "And I am glad, in fact, that we are such a
small
        circle" -- indeed so, my Lord -- "today because I can
        talk, I think, in a small audience like this more
frankly
        than I would in a large audience about what I am doing
and
        what I am proposing to do.  Because, of course, an
        historian who now stands up and says, 'I do not
believe it
        happened' is putting his name on the line.  He's
risking
        his reputation and his career and his prospects and
his
        profession".
   A.   Precisely what we have seen over the last few years,
of
        course.
   Q.   "In Germany, of course, if you say it you're risking a
        jail sentence, because that particular lie has become
a
        lie anchored in law and it is now a criminal offence
to
        challenge that six million lie.  And I think that
alone is
        prove sufficient that there is not documentary
evidence to
        back the lie up".
   A.   Can I point to the word "challenge" rather than
"deny"?
        "Challenge" implies you are looking at aspects of it.
   Q.   Please do not be impatient, Mr Irving.  The more time
goes
        by, the more emphatic you become about this.
   A.   No, these are quite important points -- small though
they

.          P-141



        may seem.
   Q.   "And I think that alone is proof sufficient that there
is
        not documentary evidence to back the lie up.  So they
        anchor it in law and this is one particular reason why
        I am even keener to demolish the lie.  Yet, to find
myself
        speaking like this to you now, in August 1988, until
would
        have astonished me", "until now", I do not know,
"would
        have astonished me had I thought about it at the
beginning
        of this year, because at the beginning of this year I
was
        among the believers.  You can find that if you look at
a
        number of my books, the Adolf Hitler biography I wrote
or
        a book that I wrote called 'von Guernica bis Vietnam'.
A
        number of books I accept quite happily that Auschwitz
        existed and that Auschwitz did exist as an
extermination
        camp, among other extermination camps.  What I did
write,
        which upset a lot of people in my Hitler biography,
was",
        and then you go on about upsetting people by denying
that
        Hitler knew anything about it.
                  Then you say:  "This was the kind of halfway
        house in my conversion".
   A.   Yes, and then if I can just draw attention to three
lines
        from the bottom:  "... not the slightest evidence of
        Hitler knowing about Auschwitz, Auschwitz as we are
now
        taught to regard it".  When we are talking about
        Auschwitz, I was being quite specific there.
"Auschwitz
        as we are now taught to regard it".  That is what I am

.          P-142



        trying to demolish.
   Q.   I know exactly what are you talking about, Mr Irving.
        That is why you say it was a halfway house in your
        conversion.  You were saying to yourself, were you
not,
        whether honestly or not is not today's work, "Well, if
        Hitler did not know about the fact that Auschwitz was
a
        massive extermination camp, very likely or perhaps it
was
        not", then you get Mr Leuchter's little report put in
your
        hand and you said, "Oh, well, I am right after all.
        Hitler cannot have known about it because it never
        happened"?
   A.   What never happened?
   Q.   That is the whole house in your conversion, is it not?
   A.   What never happened?
   Q.   Auschwitz use as an extermination camp by the use of
        homicidal gas chambers?
   A.   As a factory of death, yes.
   Q.   A factory of death.  It was never built -- we know
this --
        we have been over this a dozen times already in this
court
         -- everybody knows who knows anything about it at all
        that Auschwitz did not start life as a totas fabrik ,
as
        you call it?
   A.   There is no point getting testy about it, Mr Rampton.
        I think it is appropriate if I remind the court at
this
        point that if it turns out that I am right, then truth
is
        an absolute defence to this kind of position.  And I
am

.          P-143



        quite happy to stand here and be subjected to this
        grilling, but if it turns out that I am right at the
end
        of this trial on this particular matter, then this
been a
        lot of water under the bridge that we could have
spared
        our time over.
   Q.   With respect, Mr Irving, I believe you might have
        misconceived the nature of this case.  This case is
not,
        as I have repeatedly said, about who is right and who
is
        wrong?
   A.   Oh!
   Q.   It is not indeed.  It is about your qualities as an
        exponent of the truth.
   A.   So, in other words, "OK, he propagated the truth, but
he
        did it in a tasteless manner and an offensive manner
and
        an insensitive manner"?

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