Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day006.20 Last-Modified: 2000/08/02 Q. As a first step to that desirable end beyond the pale, were the deportations from the Outreich and the Protectorate? A. Yes. Q. Those had already begun in September or October 1941? A. That is correct. Q. What on earth then would it mean for a high ranking Civil Servant such as Lammas to say: Hitler wants that which has . P-177 already been put into effect on his own orders of September 1941 to be postponed until the end of the war? A. Can you look at the full text of the document? The full text of document says: "The Fuhrer has repeatedly said that he wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until the war is over and for this reason he does not want all this continued talking about it. He does not want all this to-ing and fro-ing within the ministry, but this is at the height of the military crisis". Q. That goes back right into the circle which his Lordship has drawn for you, does it not? If it is a general statement by Hitler about the losung of the Jewish question which is to be treated as evidence of Hitler's intention as at the 3rd or 12th March 1942, then it is a nonsense, because that entlosung has already been put into operation. It started in October 1941. MR JUSTICE GRAY: And it is still in operation, would that that not be right. MR RAMPTON: Yes, and it is still going on. A. Yes, it is. Q. It makes absolute nonsense. If, on the other hand, this is a limited reference to the mischlinge question being discussed by Heydrich and his colleagues, then it makes perfect sense, it does not say that but this is the proper interpretation, this part of the losung has to be deferred. Hitler is not interested in it. . P-178 A. That is not exactly what it says. It does not say this solution of this Jewish problem, and does not this document also therefore destroy your Riegner document which you quoted to the court with Adolf Hitler allegedly saying he wanted everything finished this year, for which purpose they are using the prussic acid, I am sure you remember the content of the Riegner document, which is only a week or two after this one. If you were right, this would destroy that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I would not go down that road. MR RAMPTON: I am not going to. I am not picking up that gauntlet. A. Can I also remind you, of course, that this is not Hitler's word? This is second hand already. This is Schlegelberger being told by Lammas what Hitler had said to him, with Schlegelberger making the note. Q. Let us try and get a little common sense into this, shall we? A. Do not attach too much importance to whether it is losung or entlosung that is the word that is being used. Q. I am not, but it is one of the little things that, though significant to an historian, is not decisive. I am not saying that. Let us use common sense and objectivity. During this period and for seven months up to this period, according to you, Hitler's version of the losung or the entlosung has been in top gear. . P-179 A. It has been gathering momentum, first one City then another. Q. It would not make any sense for Lammas to report that Hitler wants what is now taking place on his command to be postponed until the end of war, would it? So we are not talking about any general losung plainly? A. We are talking about the overall completion of every I dotted and every T crossed. Q. Exactly, including including the solution of the mischlinge problem. Do you follow? A. Can we stand back from these trivia and look at the overall effect of the document? This is a high level diamond document of unquestioned integrity, stating that Hitler wants the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is over and that is what the document states. We do not have to read between lines any more unless you want to try and devalue the document. Q. No. I am not trying to devalue the document. I am trying to help you, if I may put it so patronisingly, to see the light because you just will not, will you? Here you have a document which refers to Hitler having said he wants the solution of the Jewish question postponed until after the war. If you extract it from all its historical, rip it off the wall, take it out of its historical context, then yes, of course, it is a sort of diamond or golden sword that you like to brandish. But, if you put it in its . P-180 historical context, your interpretation makes no sense whatsoever, does it? A. Equally less does your interpretation make any sense, if I may say so. Q. Now, consider another possibility. A. You are putting the narrowest possible definition on this extraordinary broad phrase, the solution of the Jewish problem. We have been hearing for days how the Final Solution of the Jewish problem was the Holocaust. Here is a document saying he wants it all postponed until after the war is over and suddenly you say this document is of no value at all, and all your historians have never mentioned it until now they are forced to because I have put it in this court. Q. Did you write to Professor Jekel? A. Yes. Q. Who I think actually found this document? A. When I pointed him where to find it. Q. He wrote an article in a German newspaper first off about this, did he not? A. If you remember, I found the staff evidence analysis sheet which pointed out the document had once existed. Q. The fact is, whenever you have said, as you so frequently have, that all the other historians have ignored this, Abraham Jekel is, I suppose, is a historian? A. When does he claim to have found it? . P-181 Q. I do not know. I thought you just conceded that he did. A. If it is a question of who was first. Q. But he certainly has not ignored it, has he? A. Yes, he cannot ignore it now. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We are fencing a little bit. MR RAMPTON: I am not interested in defending Professor Jekel any more than I am Professor Evans. I am sure they can both fight for themselves. On 28th February 1978 you wrote to Professor Jekel in German from London, saying that you thought that this document could date anywhere between October 1941 and March 1942, did you not? A. Yes. Q. That is actually a recognition of yet another explanation of this curious document, is it not? A. In the meantime, of course, I have checked on the interrogations of everybody who was present at that session in 1942, so we know much more narrowly when the document originates from. Q. So you say, but one reasonable interpretation of this document---- A. You say so I say, that is why I am standing here in the witness box. Q. I know. I am only saying that because I have not read those things myself. I do not actually have to say that I need to rely on what you say in the witness box. A. Mr Rampton, I would not say something in the witness box . P-182 under oath if I was not speaking the truth. Q. I have to say, I am afraid, Mr Irving, on a number of occasions in this court you have said things from the witness box which I do not accept as being the truth and which I will characterise it at the end of the case as being knowingly untrue. A. There is of course a solution for that kind of problem known as the Aitken solution and, if you want to go that road, you can, but I think you will find it very difficult. MR RAMPTON: I do not know what that is. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I ask two questions, first of all, Mr Irving? Would you or would you not accept that the theory that Mr Rampton is propounding, namely that this Schlegelberger note is really confined to the problem of the mischlinge, is a feasible one? A. It does hold water but it is an alternative theory, my Lord. Q. It is alternative? A. Yes. Q. And a viable theory? A. Except for the fact that the document does not say this Jewish problem, it says the solution of the Jewish problem. Q. Apart from that fact, would I also be right that in Hitler's War you have espoused 100 per cent the theory . P-183 that it is in fact a highly significant statement because it is referring to postponing the Jewish question altogether until after the end of the war? A. My Lord, with respect, I would draw attention to the fact that in that very paragraph you are alluding to, I refer to the fact that it came immediately after the discussion about the half Jews and the mixed Jews. Q. That is true. You think that is enough to tell the reader that this may not really be a very significant statement? A. Well, it tells the intelligent reader the kind of context in which this document was found. It has taken Professor Evans, I think, eight pages to analyse the value of this document. I did not have eight pages. I have one paragraph or less. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, I must say I happen to believe his Lordship is right, that is very, what I shall say, weasley reference to the mischlinge question in Hitler's War. A. His Lordship did not say weasley reference. I do not think he used those words. Q. I interpret what I hear or see, Mr Irving. I suggest to you that the reference to the mischlinge question in Hitler's War is not apt to lead the reader to suppose that you are saying, which you are plainly not, that the so-called Schlegelberger note has anything to do with the mischlinge question. Not directly. A. I will not read it out, my Lord, but it is the third . P-184 paragraph on page 464. MR RAMPTON: Yes, I know. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have it well in mind. I have in mind what you say in the last sentence of that paragraph. A. I rely simply on that paragraph and my own comment on it. MR RAMPTON: I think I have it here. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Rampton, if it helps -- it probably will not -- I think I have got the picture on the Schlegelberger note because I have read Professor Evans and I have heard Mr Irving. You may say there are lots of other points to take, but I thought I would say that to you. MR RAMPTON: But there is one other main point, or two other main points. Whatever one may think of what was written in Hitler's War in 1991, if one were inclined to be generous to Mr Irving and say, well, he has mentioned the two in juxtaposition, therefore, one might think, though it is not explicit, what he has had to say about it since then and before is very much more categorical about, in his mind, the importance, or at any rate in his expression the importance, of this document. My Lord, I give an example from 1984: "Finally, I think the most cardinal piece of proof in this entire story of what Hitler knew about what was going on, is a document that mysteriously vanished from the Nuremberg files in 1945. It is clear", and then . P-185 there is a lot of stuff about the files. It says ---- A. Can I enquire what this is that you are reading from? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, can I ask that too? MR RAMPTON: I am sorry. I was trying to save time. It is file D3(i), tab 20, page 101. Has your Lordship got it? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to wait to hear you read it out. A. What was the page number again? MR RAMPTON: It is page 101. A. I have it.
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