Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.16 Last-Modified: 2000/08/01 Q. Would you please answer my question, Mr Irving? You said you extrapolated the conclusion that there was expert and scientific evidence that Treblinka was not a totas fabrike. You extrapolated that from Auschwitz? A. I very foolishly used the word suggested by his Lordship, "extrapolated". Perhaps I should have -- without . P-140 realising that the word was going to be seized upon by counsel. Q. That is what I am paid for, Mr Irving. I am sorry if you say things ---- A. Yes. Q. --- you readily accept a suggestion from the Judge and make it part of your evidence and it seems to me to be idiotic, then I am going to seize on it, am I not? A. I do not think his Lordship suggested an idiotic word but in this particular case ---- Q. No, the process would be idiotic, though, would it not, to extrapolate a denial about Treblinka from the evidence about Auschwitz, would it not? A. No, the extrapolation there would be to say that if Auschwitz was not a killing station, a dedicated factory of death, then, on the balance of probabilities, it is likely that these two were not dedicated factories of death either. Q. Why? Auschwitz started out as a huge grandiose scheme by Himmler, did it not, to provide a sort of fife for the SS in central or south Poland at which there would be vast factories and brilliant agricultural lands and experiments of that kind, without any thought of killing anybody at all except through hard work? A. You are giving evidence on my part. Q. That is right, is it no? . P-141 A. That is absolutely right and I wish you were my counsel at this moment. Q. That is how Auschwitz started out. Its origins were quite different from those of the three so-called Reinhardt camps? A. It now squares up to the chronology, Mr Rampton. We are told by your experts that Auschwitz had become a dedicated killing station by the end of 1941 or early 1942 at the latest, and yet apparently the also had found it necessary to establish other places to do killings too. Q. Mr Irving, I am sorry ---- A. So that is what I mean by extrapolating. If you have a super mass production factory here, then why do you build these villages elsewhere? Q. If you read Professor van Pelt's report with any care you would know that that was complete nonsense, that the evolution of Auschwitz into a dedicated killing facility, in fact not Auschwitz, Birkenhau, really began at the end of 1942. There were some gassings by the use of a cellar at Auschwitz, one, and by, two, converted farm houses during 1942? A. But of there was a course huge rate of mortality at Auschwitz in the middle of 1942. Q. We will get on to Auschwitz next week, but do not misrepresent what Professor van Pelt has said, unless you are sure of your ground, because it is not what he said. . P-142 A. You have brought up Auschwitz now and you are talking about dates and months, and when I try to pin you down on the huge mortality rate in the middle of 1942 you are saying let us talk about that next week. Q. There was a typhus epidemic at Auschwitz in 1942. A. So we are saying now that all the deaths in 1942 were from typhus? Q. Mr Irving, surely you can do better than that? A. You just said it, Mr Rampton. Q. I said there was a huge typhus epidemic in 1942? A. The killings did not start until the end of 1942. Q. I did not say that. At the same time people were being gassed in what are known as bunkers one and two, and that the conversion of the two planned crematoria at Birkenhau into gas chambers took place in the late part of 1942 at the planning stage, and that they came into operation in early 1943? A. With the cyanide being dropped in through the roof, right? MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have to compartmentalize to an extent. We are not on that topic yet. MR RAMPTON: No, we are not. A. I think Mr Rampton made some useful concessions. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is actually party my fault. I think I rater reintroduced Auschwitz. We are back on the systematic nature of the killings by whatever means, is . P-143 that really the broad heading for the topic we are on? MR RAMPTON: This is right. I am not sure where we have got in relation to Treblinka, my Lord, and the other two Reinhardt camps, except this. There has been an acceptance by Mr Irving that hundreds of thousands of Jews were intentionally killed in those three places, but not as the consequence of any policy or system, I think, and that he is not satisfied that that was their dedicated purpose. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Speaking for myself, one does not really need to spend terribly much time now on what exactly was going on in any of those places. The point seems now to be how did it come about, was it local murderers? A. I think the way Mr Rampton summed it up is a very fair summary of my position. MR RAMPTON: There is also, of course, an issue about the method of killing, but that may in due course turn out to be less significant. MR JUSTICE GRAY: In relation to those camps I think it might. MR RAMPTON: Indeed. As to system ---- A. It is only of relevance when it goes to the expertise of the people who considered this whole matter, if they willing accept that kind of story, if I can put it like that. Q. I agree with that. So, my Lord, what I propose is to look at just some very few documents for two purposes. What . P-144 I am going to do is to look at just some very documents for two purposes: one to show the scale of the thing and the other to show the sort of level at which it was being discussed. So I am not going to look at a lot of what Mr Irving calls "janitorial" documents, and I hope that most of what I am going to look at is going to be common ground. MR JUSTICE GRAY: So far as the scale of the operation is concerned, it may be that that can be, as it were, disposed of as an issue by some very general questions. I do not know. MR RAMPTON: Well, I expect so, but if one looks at, for example -- I would rather do it chronologically, if I am allowed, I think. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was just that if the door is an open one, then there is no point in pushing against it too hard. MR RAMPTON: I agree. Do you agree, Mr Irving, you have written something of it in your own book, that daily trains full of Jews, thousands of Jews, from about 22nd July were going eastwards from Walsall, Radom, and eventually Lublin. There is another place too, I cannot remember, to these three places from about 22nd July? A. This is the correspondence between Wolff and Ganzenmuller. Q. That is Wolff and Ganzenmuller? A. Yes, the Minister of Transport. Q. You do accept that? . P-145 A. Large numbers, yes. Q. We will look at what the position was in ---- A. They are going via Malinka to Treblinka I think. Q. Yes, all that, in enormous numbers. If you think about it, 5,000 Jews a day is 35,000 Jews a week? A. That would be five train loads. Q. Yes. What? A. That would have been five train loads per day. Q. Exactly. I am comfortable without having just a quick look at the document. A. It might be useful just to have a look at the documents to see what the security classification was. Q. I must say I rather agree. We will look at two documents, if you do not mind. Ganzenmuller to Wolff on 29th July 1942, it is either 28th or 29th, anyhow I need a copy of it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it H4(ii)? MR RAMPTON: It might be. A. The originals were in my discovery of course. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can we not operate off Professor Browning's. MR RAMPTON: I do not know where that is. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 45. MR RAMPTON: There is no copy, that is the trouble. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We can do it off the report, can we not? Page 45. MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, my Lord, where did your Lordship say? . P-146 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Page 45. I think that is probably all you really need. I cannot believe the context is going to make much difference. MR RAMPTON: No, the context probably is not. "Since July 22nd one train with 5,000 Jews departs daily via Malinka to Treblinka. Moreover, twice per week a train with 5,000 Jews departs", a Polish word for Belzec. So that is, is it not, 35,000 a week from, I think that is actually from Walsall? A. Yes, my only little quibble is with the figures. I accept the documents are completely authentic, but you could not get 5,000 people into one train, not even with a shoe horn. Q. I agree. That is why I think the figure is exaggerated. A. There is a little bit of bragging going on here. Q. Yes, probably. A. The normal figure is about 1,000 people per train and this is, certainly at this time, I mean later on in 1944 when they used more brutal methods I think they packed them into more unorthodox transport. Q. Perhaps, Mr Irving, we do better to look at a summary which was made in Berlin at the end of September 1942, and you may agree these figures are more reliable. It is page 47, my Lord, of Professor Browning and it is note 121, which is H3(ii), tab 13 I am told. I apologise to your Lordship for that slight delay, but when the files are . P-147 open I cannot tell what they are. It is first document behind tab 13. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. MR RAMPTON: We looked at this once before I think, Mr Irving. A. Yes. Q. We have to at the moment take it from Professor Browning that it is what he says it is. A. Yes. Q. He says it is a conference in Berlin on 26th and 28th September 1992. What his basis for that saying is I do not know. He will tell us no doubt when he gets here. Assuming that to be right, it is telling us that there was discussed, one, the evacuation of 600,000 Jews from the General Government? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of the General Government. MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, my Lord, yes, of the General Government. Then item two is the forwarding of 200,000 Romanian Jews into the General Government. A. I can see item one, the 600,000 going. Q. "Die Verschieckung". MR JUSTICE GRAY: Paragraph 2? A. Am I looking at the Browning or at a document? Q. No, I am sorry, you should be looking at a document. A. Right. Which is where. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I would do a bit of housekeeping if I were you, Mr Irving. . P-148 A. Where do I find it in H3(ii)? MR RAMPTON: You will find it behind tab 13. A. Under tab 13? Q. Yes. A. Yes, OK, I have it. Q. You have that and I expect you recognize it? A. I have never seen it before. It is pages 149 and 150 of some, it looks like a court document of some kind. Q. I do not know. A. Highly unsatisfactory of course to have a document presented in this form in a court transcript. Q. If you dispute its reliability or its authenticity you can take it up with Professor Browning when he gets here. I have asked you to bear that in mind. A. It is just a comment I make that it is unsatisfactory to have a document presented in this form. Q. Of course, but this is not an historical enquiry, Mr Irving. You brought this action against my clients asking for damages and an injunction. So we have to do the best we can with what we have before us. Can I just ask you ---- A. Mr Rampton, you have a very large staff of experts and experts' assistants and assistants to those assistants behind you in this very courtroom. I am acting on this action by myself. Q. Yes, Mr Irving. Just assume for the sake of argument, . P-149 will you, that this is both authentic and possibly, I do not know, reliable? A. Yes. Q. It speaks of the evacuation of 600,000 Jews of the General Government? A. Yes. Q. It speaks also of the forwarding into the General Government the 200,000 Romanian Jews, does it not, the second paragraph? A. Yes, it is in words, yes, "von zweihunderttausend Juden Rumaniens".
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