Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day005.09
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   I am afraid I think it is.  You see, Mr Irving, your
        position is that the gas chambers of Belzec, Sobibor,
        Treblinka and Auschwitz did not exist, so how do you think
        Himmler and his bods were carrying out the killings on a
        massive scale which they did not want Hitler to know about?
   A.   I am just checking on the date.  Well, my position on that
        really is that on the basis of the documents, I am not in
        a position at this time of writing that to be specific

.          P-73

        about what kind of camouflage is going on; but it did seem
        plain to me on reading this agenda that Himmler had
        written for his talk with Hitler, dated either September
        17th or 22nd, that if he just jotted down conditions in
        the government general and Globus there was possibly
        something sinister being discussed between them, but
that
        Himmler was not going into detail about it.  More than
        that, I could not say on the basis of what I had.
   Q.   Well.  We will have a look at the wording of the
Himmler
        note.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, it strikes me this is quite
        important.  Could we -- this is for my benefit and,
bear
        in mind, you have the advantage of me -- I just ask
about
        the reference made in Himmler's gentle rebuke of 28th
July
        what, Mr Irving, you understand the liberation of the
Jews
        entrusted to Himmler by the Fuhrer really means?
   A.   The territories are to be liberated of Jews.
   Q.   By the physical deportation or continued shooting or
by
        gassing?
   A.   My contention here is that Hitler has clearly ordered
the
        Jews turfed out of all these countries and I have
always
        said this.
   Q.   So it means that and no more than that?
   A.   There is no evidence for anything uglier than that,
and
        I would be surprised if Professor Evans has found any
        evidence that there was and certainly that there was
any

.          P-74



        evidence that was before me at the time I wrote the
book.
        I have been very careful not to go over what the
evidence
        actually bears out when I write this.  When I quote a
        document like this, I put in what the document says
and
        I try to let the reader draw their own conclusions.
   Q.   But even now you would take that view, in the light of
        your present knowledge?
   A.   With the utmost respect, what I think now is
immaterial
        for the purposes of the issues pleaded.
   Q.   Well, I do not agree for the reason I think I
explained
        yesterday, namely that if one is judging your approach
as
        an historian, how you interpret fresh information is
        something that we can legitimately ask you about; do
you
        remember I made that point to you?
   A.   I appreciate that point, my Lord.  But in that case I
        would then have to devote time to looking at the
documents
        all over again and reevaluating them in order to be
able
        to give a balanced answer to that now.
   Q.   If you feel that you would need to do that, I
understand.
   A.   I think I would have to do that.
   MR RAMPTON:  As I am about to embark on the documents, my
Lord,
        I will ask the question I was going to ask about the
entry
        in the Himmler log, but then maybe Mr Irving could
spend a
        little bit of time between the end of that and 2
o'clock
        looking at the documents?
   A.   And having lunch.

.          P-75



   Q.   Well, it is a problem that faces everybody in the
        profession, Mr Irving.
   A.   Mr Rampton, in this volume which you also have, which
is
        the Himmler diary, it is on page 566, and my date
reading
        is correct.  It is September 17th.  You rather worried
me
        on that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think you are right there in saying it
does
        not in the end matter.
   A.   Except that once again, it is only detail, you are
quite
        right, my Lord.  I will save my triumph in private.
It is
        on the left-hand page.
   MR RAMPTON:  I agree with you.
   A.   It does not matter, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   I am going to keep this open.
   A.   His Lordship has ruled it does not matter.
   Q.   Can you turn, please, to page 432 of Professor Evans'
        report?  There you see the English set out more or
less as
        it is in German.  Is that not right?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Could you give me the reference in the
        documents as to where one finds that note?
   MR RAMPTON:  One does not.  One has to look in this book.
Can
        I hand it up?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry.  I assumed it was somewhere.
   MR RAMPTON:  I cannot find it in ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am sorry.  I did not realize there was
a
        problem.  I am sorry.  I have wasted a certain amount
of

.          P-76



        time.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is quite all right.  I think we should have
        it.  My Lord, in H1(ix).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I probably have not got it here anyway.
   MR RAMPTON:  As I have the Witte version, I suggest we give
        this to your Lordship.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is just so I have the reference
really.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is at page 364 of the file.  Have you got
one,
        Mr Irving?
   A.   No, but I am very familiar with the document.  I am
the
        one who found it.  I am the one who found it and first
        used it.
   Q.   Yes.  It says in English, well, in German first,
        "volkstung und ziedlung" which means?
   A.   Volkstung und ziedlung.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   Well, "volkstung" is one of those very difficult words
to
        translate.  It means nationality or ethnicity.
   Q.   And "sietlung" just mean "settlement"?
   A.  "And settlement", yes.
   Q.   Then it says: "Judensauswanderung"?
   A.   "Jew emigration".
   Q.   "Wiezelweitr verfahren werden"?
   A.   "How should we carry on?  "How should it be carried
on?"
        There is a tick next to it so they discussed it.
   Q.   And then "Besiedlung" Lublin?

.          P-77



   A.   "Resettlement of Lublin" in that sense, really, once
it
        was empty, then settlement.
   Q.   And a line against it?
   A.   The sense is that they are going to use people,
citizens
        from Lorraine, the Germans from Bosnia and ethnic
Germans
        from Bessarabia which is a province of Romania.
   Q.   Which suggests, does it not, that the Jews who have
been
        sent on an auswanderung will make room -- the Jews of
        Lublin -- will make room for these people from
Loraine,
        Bosnia and Bessarabia?
   A.   That is a reasonable assumption that the two facts are
        interdependent.
   Q.   Then the right-hand column matters not, but
         "verhaltnisse", circumstances, general governor or,
no,
        General Government it must be, must it not, Globus?
   A.   It could be either, but the likelihood is it is
government
        general.
   Q.   Globus, if I may use a wrong word, is the Czar of
Lublin
        is he not?
   A.   He is the chief of police.
   Q.   Yes, and Lublin is in the General Government?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So it would fall to Globus -- he is an SS man, is he
not?
   A.   He was one of the mass murderers.
   Q.   Yes, he was.  He was under Himmler's, he is in
        Himmler's  ----

.          P-78



   A.   He is the senior SS and police chief, Hohere SS und
        Polizei.
   Q.   So he has been given, or is going to get, the
        responsibility for the further processing or procedure
of
        the auswanderung and replacement with Germans, ethnic
        Germans.  That is right, is it not?
   A.   Mr Rampton, you are beginning to join dots in a very
        adventurous way which is not supported by any of the
words
        actually on the paper in front of me.
   Q.   Globus, Lublin is in the General Government?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Globus is head of police, or whatever it is, and, as
you
        rightly say, one of the mass murderers in Lublin.
The
        proposal is that Lublin shall be settled with people
of
        German origin from different parts of Europe, and that
        comes immediately under the heading "Emigration of
Jews,
        how to be further proceeded"?
   A.   Right, but you are missing the first word in that line
        which is "verhaltnisse" which is circumstances,
        conditions, and although, of course, we are now
Holocaust
        obsessed in this world at present, other things were
        happening in the government general than just killing
Jews
        which is what you would maintain.
   Q.   No, the ----
   A.   The resettlement programme, the deportation of large
        numbers of innocent people to uncertain areas in the
East

.          P-79



        was causing great civilian unrest.  There were posters
        appearing overnight saying, "This week it is the Jews,
        next week it may be you, Poles".  There were major
        problems of civilian moral problems in the government
        general and, if you look at my Goebbels' biography,
you
        will see references to this when telegrammes come from
the
        propaganda offices in these regions, back to the
Berlin
        Ministry saying, "We are having major problems caused
by
        this".
                  So, this is just one example of the dangers
of
        leaping from mountain peak to mountain peek.  There
are
        things happening in between of which this document
gives
        us no cognisance, but of which I have cognisance.  So
that
        why it is very dangerous, I think, to leap to
conclusions.
   Q.   Well, I am not leaping to conclusions, Mr Irving.
Though
        I may not have your enormous wisdom and knowledge on
this
        topic, I have learned a certain amount.  After you
have
        had a chance to think about the documents which come
up to
        and beyond this point, ending with the conference in
        Berlin on 26th and 28th September -- that is the only
that
        comes after this point ----
   A.   The conference in Berlin between whom?
   Q.   --- we are going to let everybody take cognisance of
the
        surrounding material.  We can start now if you want.
   A.   Yes, but, of course, these reports I referred to were
in
        my discovery for your experts to see relating to the

.          P-80



        severe moral problems and internal unrest caused by
the
        Nazi methods in Poland.
   Q.   Mr Irving, I am not saying that there is any certainty
        about what this document means, but one of its most
        natural interpretation, surely, is this, that the
        emigration of the Jews from wherever needed to be
further
        proceeded, if that is the right translation, and
Himmler
        wanted Hitler's views about that.  As a subtopic of
that,
        it was proposed that Lublin should be settled with
German
        speakers from different parts of Europe.  That might
        depend upon the verhaltnisse and the responsibility
would
        be that of Globus within the General Government.  It
does
        not say any more than that on its face, does it?
   A.   It says a lot less than that, Mr Rampton, with
respect.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Why does it say less?
   A.   He is filling in the dots, my Lord, in an
overdangerous
        way.  First of all, this passage in the right-hand
column,
        if I am familiar with these Himmler's notes, is
something
        that has been added either after or during the actual
        talk.  It is not something which is primarily on the
        agenda, but something which has come up.  So this is
the
        first reason why it is dangerous to hang too much on
        that.  I can only respectfully submit that I made the
        proper use of that by referring only to the content of
        what the note tells us and not being too adventurous
about
        speculating to my own advantage or against ----

.          P-81



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What I am not following at the moment is
why
        you say Mr Rampton is being adventurous.  He is simply
        saying that this means, on a sensible interpretation,
        Lublin is going to have to be resettled?
   A.   That I accept.
   Q.   These are the people we intend to resettle there?
   A.   That I entirely accept, my Lord.
   Q.   The circumstances need to be discussed and Globus is
going
        to have something to do with it.  That is all Mr
Rampton,
        I think, was suggesting that paragraph to mean.
   A.   I accept the first two parts of that, my Lord, but
when he
        continues to say that when they are talking about
        circumstances and the government general and Globus,
this
        can only refer to killing Jews.  I think this is a
very
         ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He did not say that.
   MR RAMPTON:  I did not say that.  I have never said it.  I
will
        say it.
   A.   If Mr Rampton does not say that, then we are totally
in
        accord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us take it in stages.
   MR RAMPTON:  I will say it, but I will not say it yet
because I
        have not laid the ground for it, but be sure as eggs
        I will say it, yes, of course.
   A.   Well, then I was right to pre-empt.
   Q.   No, you were not.  What, Mr Irving, this document also

.          P-82



        talks about is how to further the emigration of the
Jews,
        does it not?
   A.   How we are to proceed, yes.
   Q.   Well, yes, how are we to proceed.  It has already been
        taking place on a large scale from all different parts
of
        Europe by September 1942, has it not?
   A.   There are all sorts of train movements going hither and...
   Q.   All over the place, both within the general government and
        out of the Reich, and I do not know what the date of the
        first Slovakian transport was, and so on and so forth.
        That is something which is already well underway.  This
        document is silent about what is to happen to those Jews
        or has happened to those.  It is completely silent about
        it, is it not?
   A.   That is why I made the reference about wool being pulled
        over people's eyes.

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