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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.22

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.22
Last-Modified: 2000/07/29

   Q.   If it fits the bill, I would suggest, Mr Irving.
   A.   That is not what I said.  I said if it fits the
   Q.   Have you got your Goebbels' book there?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You say on page 379 -- has your Lordship got one?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I have.  379, you say?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   A.   Yes, I have that.
   Q.   We are talking here about an article written by, or
        probably written by, Dr Goebbels?
   A.   It is one of the two most important articles he wrote.
   Q.   You say that; it was written and published, I think,
        16th December?
   A.   November.
   Q.   I am sorry, November?
   A.   1941.
   Q.   1941, as virulently anti-Semitic as anything that
        ever said?
   A.   Far more so.
   Q.   You say that, do you?
   A.   Far more so.
   Q.   You say here on page 379 in the last paragraph, the
        complete paragraph, on the page:  "Dieter Wisliceny,
        of Eichmann's closest associates, would describe the
        Goebbels' article in Das Reiche", that is the one I

.          P-196

        have just mentioned, as a watershed in the Final
        of the Jewish problem".  Then footnote 40 is a
        to the Wisliceny Report, date November 18th 1946.
That is
        to be found on page 645.  You go on in the text ----
   A.   I also reference his interrogations I see.
   Q.   You did.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "The SS took it as a sign from above Adolf Eichmann
        admit in his unpublished memoirs it is quite possible
        I got orders to direct this or that railroad to Riga",
        I don't know where we go from there quite.  Yes, I
        read the whole paragraph.  "On the last day of
        on the orders of the local SS Commander, Friedrich
        Jeckelm, 4,000 of Riga's unwanted Jews were trucked
        miles down" -- the Germans called that Dinoberg, I
        did they not?
   A.   Dunoberg, yes.
   Q.   -- "a highway to Skiaturbe plundered and machine-
        into two or three pits.  According to one army
        this is Bruns, is it not----
   A.   It is.
   Q.   --- who witnessed it, a trainload of Jews from Berlin,
        those expelled three days before, arrived in the midst
        of this aktion.  Its passengers were taken straight
out to
        the pits and shot.  This happened", and here we go
        even has Hitler's hundreds of miles away, "Hitler", I

.          P-197

        emphasise, hundreds of miles away in the Wolf's Lair,
        instructing Himmler that these Berlin Jews were not to
        liquidated.  I am not going back to that hoary old
        chestnut, you will be glad to hear, but I do want to
        you back to the beginning of this paragraph.
   A.   It is a remarkable paragraph for a Holocaust denier to
        write, is it not?
   Q.   I have no idea, Mr Irving, and anyway I am not going
        answer your question.  "Dieter Wisliceny, one
        of Eichmann's closest associates, would describe the
        Goebbels' article in Das Reich as a watershed in the
        Solution of the Jewish problem"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Where did he give that description?
   A.   What, whether he actually used the word watershed?
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   You see that I reference his manuscript written in
        Bratislava or Presburg and I also reference the
        interrogations in the associated footnote.
   Q.   But if you read what we find here in Professor Evans'
        report which is an English translation of some part of
        Wisliceny report, what you immediately realize, you do
        learn it from Mr Irving's books, you learn it
        from Professor Evans' report, what you immediately
        is that Dieter Wisliceny did not see the Reich article
        a watershed.  He saw the watershed as being an order

.          P-198

        Adolf Hitler?
   A.   Can we have a look at the passage you are relying on,
   Q.   The which?
   A.   The passage of the Wisliceny report you are relying
        in the Evans...
   Q.   One would have to go back now to ----
   A.   I no longer trust your paraphrases, you see, Mr
   Q.   --- where I was.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is page 340, I think.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  345, sorry, my Lord.  The passage -- I
        not going to read it again, I have read it once
        Read what is said there.  The German is at the bottom
        the page, so if you are going to criticise Professor
        Evans' translation, say so now.
   A.   The English is a slightly vague translation.  I am
        at the paragraph at the top of page 345, where he says
        this is just simply "reference in this connection also
        the Goebbels-article" ----
   Q.   Yes?
   A.   --- "'The Jews are guilty'".
   Q.   What does the German say?
   A.   The German says:  "In this connection, I draw
        also to the Goebbels-article 'The Jews are to blame'
in an
        edition of the newspaper Das Reich" which is possibly
        slightly more coherent way of translating it.

.          P-199

   Q.   But he is talking about German propaganda, that is to
        domestic propaganda, is he not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   After 11th December when Hitler, perhaps rather
        declared war on the United States?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   He is talking about the Yellow Star and he is talking
        about the article in Das Reich as examples.  He then
        said:  "In this period of time, after the beginning of
        war with the USA, I am convinced must fall the
decision of
        Hitler which ordered the biological annihilation of
        European Jews".  So how is it, if that is the piece
        were referring to, that that gets converted into
        Wisliceny saying that the article by Goebbels in Das
        was a watershed?
   A.   I beg to differ with you.  I think that even this
        bears me out.  He said the words you omitted in your
        summary, he says: "The second wave of radicalization
        began" and the instance of this he gives is the
        publication of the article.  This is what triggered
        the off the second wave of radicalization.  But you
        also overlooked, and I am sorry I tripped you up on
        when you referred to the Goebbels' Diaries, would you
        to read out the reference for the passage that I gave
        you?  You implied that it relies only on the Wisliceny

.          P-200

   Q.   No, you refer to something else, but so what?  Sorry,
I am
        not following you.
   A.   If you look in the source reference, it clearly says:
         "Wisliceny report and interrogations of Wisliceny in
        national archives" which Professor Evans has obviously
        bothered to look at.
   Q.   I am quite open-minded, Mr Irving.  If you tell me
that in
        the interrogations, as opposed to the report, there is
        positive statement by Wisliceny to the effect that
        Goebbels' article was the watershed or a watershed,
        I will accept it, if you tell me to find it?
   A.   Mr Rampton, I am under oath and I am not going to make
        statement from memory for something that I cannot back
        without going home and checking the files.   All that
I do
        say is that Professor Evans has made no reference to
        fact that I used other sources to justify that one
        sentence and that he, apparently, has not bothered to
        and have a look at those interrogations of Wisliceny
        because they are so many thousands of miles away.
   Q.   We may just have time to go over to the other side of
        page in Evans' Report, 346 at paragraph 4.  This is a
        further extract, says Professor Evans -- of course,
        may prove that he is wrong about it -- this is an
        from the same document, apparently, where Wisliceny
                  "According to Eichmann's own report, which

.          P-201

        made to me, Globocnig (sic) was the first to use gas
        chambers for the mass extermination of humans.
        had set up big labour camps for Jews in his area of
        command, and he got rid of those who were unable to
        in the manner described.  As Eichmann explained,
        this 'procedure' was 'less conspicuous' than the mass
        shootings".  The German is "Massenerschiessungen".  Do
        remember those words?  Do they ring a bell?
   A.   Yes, indeed.
   Q.   Something to do with General Bruns?  Does that ring a
   A.   Well, there were mass shootings occurring all over the
        Eastern Front.  It is not specifically a reference
just to
        that one.  There were mass shootings at Riga, there
        mass shootings at Minsk, mass shootings elsewhere in
        Ukraine.  So it would be specious just to say this is
        reference to the Bruns Report.
   Q.   My point is a slightly different one.  Indeed, it is
not a
        reference to the Bruns Report.
   A.   Well, you mentioned the Bruns.
   Q.   Exactly, and I will tell you why.  What Bruns said he
        told by Altemeyer was to precisely the same effect,
        mass shootings, or mass shootings of this kind, mass
        shootings, must stop.  That must be done more
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is almost a mirror image of what Wisliceny reports

.          P-202

        Eichmann having said, this procedure, gassing, was
        conspicuous, "unauffalliger"  ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- than the "Massenerschiessungen"?
   A.   This was the tendency in the SS; they did not like
        shooting people.  Shooting took it out of them.
   Q.   Sure.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And that is why they took to gassing people, is it
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But you accept, do you, Mr Irving, that -
   A.   Gassing did occur, yes.
   Q.   --- the Bruns Report corresponds with what is,
        recorded in Eichmann's report?
   MR RAMPTON:  In Wisliceny's report, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sorry, in Wisliceny's report.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is double hearsay, if you like, but so what
        you are an historian.
   A.   It is indeed and the word "report", of course, is
        sharpening it up.  He is actually just saying,
        to what Eichmann said", he is saying.
   MR RAMPTON:  Do they not echo one another?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Bruns is talking about shootings in the Osland in
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Here Wisliceny is talking much more generally, is he
   A.   Indeed, yes, and we do not know about what period he

.          P-203

        talking about, we do not know about what region he is
        talking about.
   Q.   Do you not detect in the convergence of those two
        completely otherwise unrelated pieces of evidence ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- even a hint of a suggestion that the reality was
        mass shootings were embarrassing because they could
        out because it upset the soldiers too much, because it
        expensive in bullets, a shift in policy from shooting
to a
        more discreet means of disposal, that is to say,
   A.   I am afraid that was such a long question that I had
        you halfway through again.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I think it is the end of a longish
        for Mr Irving and I think we will...
   MR RAMPTON:  I will repeat the question first thing on
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Will you?
   MR RAMPTON:  It will be on the transcript.
   A.   Can you put it in two halves so that ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It was a long question.  Anyway, we are
        adjourning now.
   A.   --- a bear of limited brain can follow it, but I lost
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So it is 10.30 on Monday in court 73.
        (The court adjourned until 10.30 p.m. on Monday, 17th
        January 2000)

.          P-204

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