The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.18

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.18
Last-Modified: 2000/07/29

   A.   But I believe it is the next part you wish to continue with.
   Q.   It is the next part.  It is what Hans frank is reported as
        having said when he got back to the General Government on
        16th December 1941.  This is printed in what one might
        call the official common place book, would it be right?
        It is the Tagesbuch.  That is an official record, is it
        not, of some kind?
   A.   It is the abridged version of the multi-volumed diaries
        and conference records of the General Governor, Hans Frank.
   Q.   And you have used it yourself?
   A.   I used the original manuscript, yes.  I did not use the
        printed edition.  It is in my discovery.
   Q.   You have used this passage?
   A.   I have indeed and I used the original manuscript and not
        the printed version.
   Q.   Maybe so.  At the end of this first page, 31, in

.          P-159

        translation, perhaps here the German does not really
        matter, perhaps you will agree.  The first complete
        paragraph at the bottom of -- sorry, last paragraph on
        page:  "What is to happen to the Jews?  Do you believe
        that they will be lodged in settlements in Osland?"
        is the Baltic countries, is it not, Osland?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "In Berlin we were told, 'Why all this trouble?  We
        use them in the Osland or the Reichcommissariat
        Liquidate them yourselves!'".
                  Then goes on, apparently, Governor Frank:
        must destroy the Jews wherever we encounter them and
        wherever it is possible in order to preserve the
        structure of the Reich".  I would ask you to turn over
        page, Mr Irving, where at the bottom of page 32 you
        find the German of ----
   A.   That is what I have just been reading, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  Has Professor Browning translated it correctly?
   A.   Yes.  I used a different translation in my own book,
        this is an adequate translation.
   Q.   That is right, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   But he has not translated the last two lines on page
        Would you please read those and tell us what they
   A.   Well, it is an incomplete fragment.
   Q.   He has put an ellipsis?

.          P-160

   A.   He has put what?
   Q.   He has put an ellipsis in, has he not, to show that --
   A.   Yes, but it is the second half of a sentence and, as
        know, in German, the Germans put their verbs at the
        so it...
   Q.   Yes.  Be kind enough just to translate what we have.
   A.   "But if we then undertake incursions which in some way
        lead to a destructive result or success and, indeed,
        connection with the measure -- in connection with the
        great measure which is to be conferred upon at the
         -- this is a reference to the coming Bunzig
   Q.   That is right.
   A.   It is a truncated sentence it is difficult to find
        way into without the beginning.  "Vernichtungs Erfolg"
        the word you want to see.  V-E-R-N-I-C-H-T-U-N-G-S
   Q.   Does it mean this, Mr Irving, at any rate the last
part of
        that first of the two bottom lines:  "It will anyway
        to a complete or successful destruction",
   A.   That would be a rigid and unacceptable translation.
        I would say, "If we succeed in wiping them out".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which does "Erfolg" mean?
   A.   "Success", "If we succeed in wiping them out",
        "Vernichtung" or "If we succeed in destroying them".

.          P-161

   MR RAMPTON:  A successful wiping out?
   A.   A successful wipe out, yes, but German sentences you
        frequently have to break up and recast in order to
        them acceptable.
   Q.   I am not playing tricks.  I will try to find the whole
   A.   I am trying to help you, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   I am being passed ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just be clear?  Are you accepting
        what Hans Frank is recording here is what Hitler said
        Berlin to the Gauleiter?
   A.   Yes -- no, he has not made a reference to the
   Q.   I know he has not made a reference to it ----
   A.   No.
   Q.   --- but he says:  "In Berlin we were told", and I
        inferred that Mr Rampton was suggesting that that was
        Hitler's speech to the Gauleiter?
   A.   I think it would be quite a dangerous leap to make.
   Q.   Am I wrong about that?
   A.   It is put in ----
   MR RAMPTON:  No, it is not quite what I had put because I
        not have the evidence to make that kind of suggestion.
        I am suggesting that while Hans frank was in Berlin,
        somebody told him, and he was there probably amongst
        reasons for the occasion of Hitler's speech ----

.          P-162

   A.   Yes.
   Q.   -- somebody told him, it might have been Hitler, it
        have been Heydrich, that they have to see to the
        liquidation of the Jews themselves in the East.  That
        mean that, does it not?
   A.   I do not think the word they use is "liquidation".  He
        says "wipe out", "If we have a success in wiping them
        destroying them", "Vernichtung", which can done in a
        number of ways as I gave the instance with
Christianity or
        with drug addiction.
   Q.   I am not sure you are right about that.  The word is
         "liquidiet zi selbe"?
   A.   I am sorry, I was looking at the wrong part.
   Q.   No the quote is: "Man hut uns in Berlin gesagt",  "We
        told in Berlin"?
   A.   Oh, unquestionably, yes.
   Q.   "Liquidate them yourselves"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So ----
   A.   And the reason that Browning knows about this is
        he found this quotation in my books.  I am the first
        to have dug it out.
   Q.   Brownie points to you, Mr Irving, but the fact is that
        Hans Frank is saying on this occasion when he gets
back to
        Poland -- I think this took place in Krakow, did it
   A.   His headquarters is in Krakow, yes.

.          P-163

   Q.   He is saying:  "When we were in Berlin" ----
   A.   "They told us".
   Q.   --- "they told us, 'We can't solve the Jewish problem
        you.  We can't house them.  Liquidate them
   A.   Yes.  Berlin, of course, was the seat of the
        Reichssicherheits Hauptamt, of Reinhardt Heydrich.
   Q.   I know, that is Heydrich's headquarters too.
   A.   Hitler's headquarters, well, in East Prussia, not in
   Q.   Certainly it is though, whether Hitler took part in
        discussions or not, I cannot tell you.  I do not
        that he did.  I do not ----
   A.   I think it is a very interesting fragment, a verbatim
        transcript to which one can attach a great deal of
        importance rather than reported third person
        non-subjunctive stuff.  This is Hans Frank's actual
        taken down by a stenographer and that is why I was
        pleased to quote them in full.
   Q.   Yes, surely.  We are not here necessarily, Mr Irving,
        talking about the Jews that the Einsatzgruppen found
        Russia; rather the contrary, do you not think?
   A.   The German Jews.
   Q.   We are talking about two groups of Jews if we are
        about Hans Frank and the General Government?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   We are talking about German and other Jews, Slavakia

.          P-164

        wherever else, French, Dutch, Belgium and so on, that
        shipped to East, transported I mean, but we are also
        talking about the indigenous Jews at Poland, are we
   A.   Primarily at this time the indigenous Jews.  I do not
        think that any major shipment of Jews had started from
        Western Europe in Poland or the General Government at
   Q.   Do you agree that Eichmann said at the Bunzig
        I think it was he, it may have been somebody else, it
        have been somebody else who gave the figure, there
        roughly two and quarter, two and a half million Jews
        living in Poland at that time in early 1942?
   A.   That is almost certainly the right figure, but
        did not speak at the Bunzig conference.  He just kept
        minutes as I understand it.
   Q.   But that is the figure that was given at the Bunzig
   A.   I will take your word for it, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   You have read it.  I am sure you have read the
        the minute or whatever it is.  So what Hans Frank is
        saying here is:  "The Jews that we are responsible for
        (getting rid of) numbering roughly two and a quarter
        million, we have been told by Berlin we have to
        ourselves".  That is what it is saying, is it not?
   A.   No.  What he is saying is:  "Do not start dumping Jews
        us.  We have got no room for the ones we have got.

.          P-165

        your own problems".
   Q.   No, "in Berlin we were told"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Not, "I said to the people in Berlin"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Man hat" is passive?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Uns gesagt" means "they told us in Berlin"?
   A.   "Why all this bother?  Why all this fuss and bother?"
   Q.   That is right.
   A.   They are talking about what they are going to be doing
        with the Jews that people are talking about now
        out of Western Europe, and Hans Frank has been
        hand and foot at having any dumped in his domain.
   Q.   Yes.  He has been told he has got to do it himself?
   A.   No, he has been you take what you are given.  He is
        saying, "I don't want them."  I know the background to
        this story, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   What do the words mean, I am sorry, Mr Irving, I
        you had agreed this was an accurate translation?
   A.   It is accurate.
   Q.   "In Berlin we were told, 'Why all this trouble?  We
        use them in the Osterland or Reichskomissariat either.
        Liquidate them yourselves.'"?
   A.   No.  No one is talking about shipping Jews from the
        Osterland or the Ukraine into Berlin.  The shipment is

.          P-166

        going other way round.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What Mr Rampton is putting to you is that
        that phrase "liquidate them yourselves" is in effect a
        direction from Berlin to the General Government.
   A.   No, sir.  I read it differently both in the original
        even now.  This is Hans Frank recalling what he told
        Berliners saying, "Stop dumping your Jews on us, you
        your own problems, you liquidate them yourselves".
   MR RAMPTON:  I am going to refer you to the full text of
        Hans Frank said in a moment.  Can you first of all
        your own version of this, please, on page 428 of
        War 1991.
   A.   Can we look at it in the earlier version because it is
        totally unchanged?
   Q.   No, it is not in the earlier version so far as I know.
   A.   It definitely it is.  It is in every book that I have
        written.  Which page, Mr Rampton?
   Q.   If you want the earlier version, I am not sure it is
        the earlier version, but I will check that.  Yes, it
        If you want to use the earlier version, first, I have
        problem with that.  Page 332.
   A.   Yes, "Yet the blood purge continued".
   Q.   Yes.  I am waiting for his Lordship's file to emerge.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Hitler's War.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is 1977 Hitler's War, my Lord, I think the
        first volume.

.          P-167

   MR RAMPTON:  It is I think more or less identical to what
is in
        the 1991 edition.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you got a reference for that?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, that is page 427 it starts, the last
        paragraph, the last three lines.  I will read.  It
        immediately follows the reference to the Himmler
        note of 1st December.  Mr Irving writes: "Yet the
        purge continued".
   A.   Shall I read it?  It is my book.

Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.