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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day002.18

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day002.18
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   Is that is correct.  As a consequence of that, you have
        come to believe, perhaps it was a matter of protest,
        perhaps not, I do not know, that the Nazis did not use gas
        chambers for the extermination of Jews let alone millions
        of Jews?

.                                      P-255

   A.   Yes, I have become very sceptical of that element of
   Q.   And you have publicly expressed your disbelief?
   A.   Scepticism, yes.
   Q.   So if and in so far as that forms a part of people's
        belief about the Holocaust, you are a Holocaust
   A.   No.
   Q.   Are you not?
   A.   No.  You do not have to believe in the whole to be a
        believer.  How many of us are Christians who do not
        believe in every aspect of the Christian ethos?
   Q.   All right.  I do not think we ought to argue
        Mr Irving.
   A.   It is a metaphysics problem you are putting there. You
        saying:  Believe the whole thing or you are a denier
        you are ruined.  You will not eat lunch in this town
   Q.   I did not. I said in so far as that forms a part of
        people's belief about the Holocaust, you deny that
        put it like that?
   A.   Mr Rampton, are you leading evidence on people ----
   Q.   I am asking you ----
   A.   --- people's belief?
   Q.   I am asking you a question.  If it should be thought
        it forms a part of common belief about the nature of
        Holocaust that large numbers of Jews were

.                                      P-256

        gassed in purpose-built gas chambers, you are a
        denier, are you not?
   A.   I do not know this does form a large part of people's
        beliefs and I do not think you are allowed to lead
        evidence on people's beliefs in an effort to back it
   Q.   Mr Irving, only one last little bit about that.
        methods were used, and you deny the use of gas
        whatever methods were used to kill large numbers of
        whether they are 1, 2 or 3 or 6 million, you say it
        not systematic, is that right?
   A.   Would you elucidate precisely what you mean by
        "systematic"?  Something organised and ordered from
        highest level of the Third Reich or something ordered
        halfway up the system, or something that was just a
        within the camp?  I think the word "systematic" is a
        of a man trap.
   Q.   You know quite a lot about the shootings in the East
        Barbarossa in June 1941, do you not?
   A.   As I said this morning, they appeared to be chaotic,
        disorganized and arbitrary.
   Q.   You know that ----
   A.   As that one signal proves that I read out.
   Q.   You know, do you not, that regularly, indeed
        reports were sent back in writing from the East, from
        units in the East, from the Einsatzgruppen and other
        in the East, enumerating and totalling the numbers of

.                                      P-257

        people shot?
   A.   Who were these reports from and to?
   Q.   They are from the Einsatzgruppen to Heydrich's office
   A.   Yes, this is true.
   Q.   Where they are, am I not right, distilled into, as it
        were, summary reports, meldung?
   A.   Sometimes they were, yes.
   Q.   And there are a large number of these documents, are
   A.   Yes.  From whom to whom did these reports go?
   Q.   From the East to Berlin.
   A.   Yes, and the meldung you are talking about made in
        were did they go to?
   Q.   That is a matter of speculation.  Assume they went to
        Heydrich or his office.  We are then, are we not, in
        top echelons of the Nazi party at this time?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do we need to go any further?
   A.   We do not and I can make your life easier, Mr Rampton,
        saying that Adolf Hitler was quite satisfied, I think,
        with the Einsatzgruppen operations on the Eastern
Front in
        so far as they had the character of security
   Q.   I see.
   A.   Subsequently of course the security operations were
        umbrellaed out to include the liquidation of Jews who

.                                      P-258

        considered to be fair game.
   Q.   We will come to report No. 51 on 29th December, 26th
        original date but 29th September 1942 further down the
   A.   That is just one of a kind of course.
   Q.   Well, it is 51.  It is No. 51.  So presumably there
        another 50 before it?
   A.   Yes, but the others were about things like the
        and development of the rubber plant and things likes
   Q.   It may be so. It gives a figure, does it not?
   A.   316,000.
   Q.   363,000 plus as a separate category of Jews executed
        three areas.
   A.   I think you ought to look at the whole document rather
        than just take one line out and consider the document
        bit and the initials that are marked on it.
   Q.   Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But the figure is right, is it not?  That
        the figure?
   A.   This figure is typed on that document, my Lord, that
        true, yes, and the document is typed in the special
        faced typewriter which Himmler and Hitler used.
   Q.   Himmler used that as well?
   A.   Yes, on occasion he would use it to write speeches in,
   MR RAMPTON:  And that document is signed by Himmler, is it

.                                      P-259

   A.   One copy of it is that I have seen.
   Q.   And it is marked for the Fuhrer, is it not?
   A.   It is a report to the Fuhrer, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  Suppose ----
   A.   It would be far more useful if we could have the
        before the court.
   Q.   Unfortunately I do not have it here.  So we will have
        come back to it.  We will come back to it in detail I
        afraid.  There is no way round it.
   A.   I am very familiar with the document of course.  I
        his Lordship should see it.
   Q.   This is why I can ask you about it, so am I, without
        having it in front of you.  Just suppose for the sake
        argument that that document was shown Adolf Hitler?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Why would it have been shown to Adolf Hitler?
   A.   I would ask the question the other way round.
   Q.   No, please.
   A.   I would say why is that figure buried on page 6 of
   Q.   It is not.  It is on the first page.
   A.   That is why we wrote it so I do not blunder into silly
        mistakes like that.  I think I am right. You think you
   Q.   I am not trying to catch you.  Under the heading
        and Fuhrer or whatever it is?

.                                      P-260

   A.   Yes, OK, why it is buried on that first page.
   Q.   Have you got it there?
   A.   We have got it.  Ah!
   Q.   No, I have not got my copy.  We have only got one
        We do not play tricks like that in this court, Mr
        If we do the judges get very cross with us.  There is
        point to it.
   A.   What I shall ask you is, does it have the notation at
        top:  Fuhrer Fordalig?
   Q.   I did not hear that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Does it have "shown to the Fuhrer"
written on
        the top?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, it does. Well, it has a word which I
        means something like "presented" in handwriting.  It
        written by a man called Fife I think.
   A.   I know Fife and I know Gruchmann, the two initials on
        It has the letters ERL which means taken care of which
        or may not have been shown to Hitler.
   Q.   Please, I do not want to come on to the question of
        whether the Fuhrer ever saw it.  I would just like you
        have a look at it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I be told where it is?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I am sorry.  It is in H3 (i) at tab 3.
        has a handwritten "6" on the bottom which is a modern
        numeral.  Tab 3 page 6.  It has a whole load of other
        numbers on it as well.

.                                      P-261

   A.   Written on the top it says "forgaleg" which means put
        before.  But it does not say whom to.  But it does say
        "put before".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is cut off on my copy.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I know.  I have had it read by a
        and it does say that.
   A.   The initial at the top is Fife and the initial below
it is
        Gruchmann, GR.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So the manuscript is "forgaleg", is it?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do you accept that means since it is addressed to the
        Fuhrer that it was shown to him?
   A.   On a high probability, yes, my Lord.  I would have
        accepted that as being evidence that it had probably
        shown to Hitler, but I would also draw attention to
two or
        three details, if I may, since we are looking at the
        document now.
   MR RAMPTON:  I would rather we left it but you can if you
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I personally think I would leave it.
   A.   I do not want to upset Mr Rampton by drawing attention
   Q.   You will have an opportunity later.
   A.   I am not questioning the authenticity, my Lord, just
        aspects of it.  Right.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not mind at all, Mr Irving, if that is
        you would like to.

.                                      P-262

   A.   No, you have your own way.
   Q.   I look at it, I see it describes itself, its subject
        matter ----
   A.   Now you are looking at details and I am not allowed
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we will leave it to Mr Rampton.
        I think he can ask you more questions if he wants to.
   MR RAMPTON:  If you have answers to my questions rather
        speeches to make by all means give them, but I really
        prefer to proceed my own way, if I am allowed.  It
        concerns reports to the Fuhrer about the campaign
        the partisans.  Is that a roughly right translation?
   A.   This is what I was about to point out, that the
        line is combatting partisan, partisan warfare.
   Q.   It is report No. 51 and it concerns Souther Russia,
        Ukraine and Bialystok area, does it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is about the outcome of that campaign from 1st
        September until 1st December 1942?
   A.   That is correct, yes.
   Q.   The first group, the first category are called van
        Diecknann which are ----
   A.   It is their word for "partisans".
   Q.   Well, not always, sometimes it is partisanan, is it
   A.   They have various different words for the same thing.
        Nazi jargon was to call partisan bandits.
   Q.   Yes.  There are some people killed under in fact four

.                                      P-263

        headings, August, September, October and November.  So
        does not actually begin on 1st September; it begins
        earlier.  The second category are partisan helpers and
        what are "vanda verdicta"?
   A.   Partisan suspects.
   Q.   Suspects, yes.  In 2C it says:  First of all,
        that is subcategory (a).  Then it says subcategory
        numbers executed, a total of 14,257.  In subcategory
        it says explicitly, does it not, "Jews executed"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And the total there is 363,211?
   A.   That is correct.
   Q.   What would the Fuhrer think when he saw that.  You
        us?  You are the Hitler historian.
   A.   I do not think that my imagined response on behalf of
        Fuhrer is evidence in this case.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.  I think that is wrong, if I may say
        I thought you might say that, but you are an
        It is your job to make sense of a document, if you
        I therefore think it is not only a proper question, it
        quite a significant question.

   A.   Well ----

   Q.   To be asked what you think this would have conveyed to
        Hitler, which is I think what Mr Rampton was asking.

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