Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.19 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 MR IRVING: He is also a publisher. MR RAMPTON: He may also be a publisher but that is by the way for present purposes. Dr Spranger I think is lawyer both for Mr Irving and for Christian Worch. MR IRVING: My Lord, will you let me re-cross on this? . P-176 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is a new document and I will, yes. MR RAMPTON: Yes. Is there any significance in the date, do you think, Professor Funke, of 30th January? A. In the circumstances of the court issue, of course, it is a day when Adolf Hitler got into power in 1933. MR IRVING: I do not see the date. Where is the date? MR RAMPTON: The 30th January 1991. MR IRVING: The letter is dated? MR RAMPTON: Yes, 30th January 1991. The temperature, in which we may be interested, was 28 degrees centigrade or Celsius, perhaps that does not matter. We have left that off the translation. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, you have not, you have just put it on the next line. MR RAMPTON: Sorry. I do not know what the message was to which this was a reply, but plainly, you may think, Dr Funke, it is what one might call a scenario draft, whatever you call it, for a speech, because what the third line says in English is, or an article it might be, I do not know: "The topic will be Germany's new role as great power", is that right? A. Right. Q. If you want to follow in German, please do, beginning: "I come late but honestly. Furthermore, I intend" -- this is not supposed to be literary, so Mr Irving may not like it -- "Furthermore, I intend initially to point to my . P-177 prophecy of 3.10.89!" Why, in your view, Dr Funke, the exclamation mark behind the date? A. Because a year later there was a formal unification act at 3rd October '90. Maybe this is the reason. Q. Am I right that Adolf Hitler made a speech in the Reichstag, a rather famous speech, on 30th January 1939? A. Oh, yes. Q. And did he in that speech repeat what he had said on the 3rd October 1989 -- I mean ---- A. Oh, yes. Q. No, let us start again. In 1938? MR IRVING: I hope it gets better than this. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, Mr Irving. MR RAMPTON: Well, I think it does, if I may say so. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I hope so. MR RAMPTON: Start again. There was a famous speech by Adolf Hitler on 30th January 1939 in the Reichstag? A. Yes. Q. Did he in that speech repeat something he had said on 3rd October 1938? A. He referred to if there is a war then this will cause much damage to the Jews. Q. Is it unfair in the light of these dates to see Mr Irving standing in one of those smart Nazi uniforms while he makes this prophecy? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think we will move on. . P-178 MR RAMPTON: I will go on. I want to be serious now. MR IRVING: In view of the fact that I have hurried through my own cross-examination in order to make space for re-examination, I am beginning to regret it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us move on anyway. MR RAMPTON: "Made at a press conference in Berlin, namely that Germany would be reunited within 12 months", and that is a prophecy which came true. "My reputation as prophet being confirmed, I will allow myself some prognoses for the coming five, ten, fifteen years. Within these I see the possibility of a conversion of the Austrian economy to German marks, a political drawing together of the German speaking peoples of Europa" or Europe? A. Europe. Q. "The emergence of a German economic community with an incredible potential for the German mark within the next ten years, with the possibility of gradually outplaying the EEC. Germany would use this economic power in order to help the backward countries in the East of Europe, therefore expand a kind of German empire", "imperium" I think is the word? A. Yes. Q. "In the East. The German economic hegemony would then, in the course of ten to twenty years, extend to Poland, the Ukraine, White Russia and the original German sphere of interest the Baltic States. Within the framework of a . P-179 just settlement with Warsaw, in which the partial repayment of the Polish debts should play a not insignificant role, it would result in a return of the German Eastern territories, only sparsely settled by Poles anyway. In the framework of a partnership with the Russia people, but mind you not the criminal Soviet government" -- January 1991? Well, never mind. "It would also result in a blossoming of the Russian economy and a return of Kalingrad and Northeast Prussia to Germany. In this context the events in Latvia play a role that can barely be overestimated". Assume, if you will, Dr Funke for the moment that that was going to form the topic of an article or a speech amongst one of these right-wing groups in Germany, how do you calculate its likely popularity? A. I mean because of the subtle strategical tone in this piece, it may be perceived as a kind of authoritative speech to this audience, because what is done in this piece is to take the economic strategies, the economic widening of the influence of the German mark area, to get to a political resettling of borders and this is the point that people of that kind of camp are interested in, you know, to re-arrange the borders in Eastern and near Eastern, central East Europe, and using conflicts between the ethnics, different ethnics with respect to the German ethnic interests or resettling aspects. So this is to the . P-180 core of those activism of right-wingers in the early 90s. Q. Then I will in the light of that answer show you, if I may, the Halle transcript. I am afraid here we have not had time to transcribe the German, but we have translated it directly off the tape on to the page, which clever people can do. MR IRVING: Is this my transcript or your transcript? MR RAMPTON: No, this is one we did last night directly from the tape. I have already said. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Where are we going to put this, Mr Rampton? MR RAMPTON: It maybe could go no the Worch section of RWE 2 which is section 11 I think. MR JUSTICE GRAY: If somebody can provide the page? MR RAMPTON: 26A and B. MR JUSTICE GRAY: 26A, yes. MR RAMPTON: I would like you, Dr Funke, it is was done very quickly, I know, we have not got the German, but I would like you to look at the bottom of the page seven lines up, at the end of line he says: "I as an Englishman", have you got that? A. Yes. Q. "I as an Englishman must say I am really jealous of what will happen to Germany in the next five or ten or fifteen years", remember those figures? A. Yes. Q. Then in brackets applause? . P-181 A. Yes. Q. Does the applause in this context for these sorts of words, does the applause surprise you or not? A. Does it? Q. Does the applause surprise you or not? A. No. Q. "In the next ten years you will get back the (unintelligible word) Eastern areas which today (unintelligible phrase). You will probably gain the financial, the economic hegemony over all the previously lost countries of the former Soviet empire. The Germans ... apparent cut, there you have to be careful because then the foreign countries, then the western powers, will do everything to prevent this happening, even when today the Federal Chancellor Kohl speaks about apparent cut, the future of England can only be secured in common friendship with the new Germany. In this sense I stand by the parole, we might say the phrase, Germany first, cheers and shouts of sieg heil". MR IRVING: "First" is wrong. It is "forward". MR RAMPTON: "Germany forwards". Are you reading on? Then Worch makes an appreciative speech. How do you characterize, Professor Funke, those kinds of sentiments to an audience of this nature? A. It plays with this greater Germany feelings of that kind of people. Clearly it refers before to the matter of the . P-182 Third Reich, the so-called matter of the Third Reich, to Rudolf Hess, a man of peace, who did the peace, according to Irving, with England, so then there is a reference to the joint, you know, venture he is up to between the white England and the white dominated or what have you Germany to have a hegemony over the always criticised East, the Bolshevik and post-Bolshevik East. It is alluding to the former critics to the Soviet empire. There you have again these kind of ideas how to manage it to have this greater Germany. It includes a kind of implication that this cannot be without very intense conflicts with the western Allies or Western nations in the whole. So this is a phrase that also you have again and again, that there will be some kind of conflict, even war, be it internally or be it internationally, and here you have a kind of subtle hint that they will do it, the bigger Germany, the greater German activists will do it, and it will cause conflicts with the Western nations. I have to say as a political scientist that of course the border thing in Europe of 89 follows, is one of the most debated and dangerous things we have, and this is true, as you know, also for the last century. Gottfried Kussel, for example, said in this very Halle, you know, meeting just before this event happened that, if it is necessary, I do not want it, but if it is necessary, we will have an internal war; we will have a civil war in these countries, and as an Austrian he refers . P-183 to Germany and Austria. So you have this kind of war-mongering or at least implicationing of wars in this whole right-wing extremist utterances. Q. Thank you. There is only one other thing about this script or transcript, translation. On the second page it says: "The future of England can only be secured in common friendship with the new Germany." You talked about the white England. Am I right, correct me if my history is wrong, did Hitler have an idea that England was the repository of some kind of pure Aryan race with whom he would like to be friends? A. Yes, it was always his wavering not to be faced with a war with Great Britain, and in that sense these kind of white Aryan feelings are widespread also during the Nazi period and especially Hitler himself. Q. Just before we leave this document which representing Mr Irving's words we think in Halle in 1991, just look at the top of the page. In the light of the answers you gave earlier, well, we start at the top of Mr Irving's speech: "My dear Germans, I have known you for 30 years since I worked here for a year as steelworker in West Germany, and I as the first historian in the world wrote a book about the destruction of the German city, the middle German city Dresden, therefore, I have no fear to write the truth about what we, the English, committed against . P-184 the German people in terms of war crimes during the Second World War. I welcome it." Then there is applause and cheers. Does that surprise you, Professor Funke? A. No, not at all. It shows, especially for these people, a clear identification with this kind of greater Germany thing, this kind of Nazi past, the past of heroic things, whereas, so to speak, those who realize the reasons of the more political and military defeat of national socialism, they in a way say in different forms, that of course this Second World War by Churchill and the Americans, and even the Soviets, had to be done to crush Adolf Hitler down. This is, so to speak, the alternative level consensus of postwar Germany. Q. Thank you. A. Only because of that, just to put another sentence to it, only because of this defeat there was a chance to rebuild democracy, and that means especially the recognition of human dignity of the basic human rights.
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