Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.05 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 . P-39 Q. Then on November 18th 1989, I note he makes a very good impression, be is businesslike and ambitious, keen and organized -- A. Right. Q. -- he has learned a lot already. He appears to be coming up to speed. A. I mean he even spoke instead of you, taking your notice in a given moment. So it was quite close, although his manner, as you would put it, are lacking some of the Prussian, you know, style of organizations. Q. February 5th 1990, I am sorry, February 3rd 1990, I express annoyance that Althans has made no attempt to contact me in two and a half months, and I add that was very unprofessional? A. No, it went like it. You see it. Q. Well, I think this is important, because his Lordship is interested in the closeness of the contact. If I note on February 3rd 1990, I expressed annoyance that Althans and made no attempt to contact me in two and a half months, that is very unprofessional. He is supposed to be setting up things in Dresden and so on? A. But, again, he made this furious event in Dresden at the 13th February '90, and. Q. --- did he -- A. You describe it. So I would just, if I may, I would just say it is a back and forth. It is in waves, right, but . P-40 very intense at that time. Q. -- why do you say -- A. Because of the Zundel connections he had and the Philipp -- and all the bunch of people you referred at that time. Q. -- why do you describe the event in Dresden as being curious -- A. I did not say "curious", furious. It was a furious success for you in your own perception. Q. Furious? A. Great, big, big success. Q. -- on the diary of January 28th 1990 shows he organized it with the "cultur director", the cultur manager of the city of Dresden, did he not? A. Right. Q. Which is what I would expect a young man do for me, to act as my kind of manager and go out and organize these meetings, and he was organizing meetings with the municipal authority of Dresden. But he is not dealing with skinhead organizations, or extreme right-wing groups, he is dealing with the proper authorities? A. He did it both. Q. But eventually we fell out, did we not, for a whole number of reasons? A. Yes. Q. Reasons for honesty and so on, I do not want to go into . P-41 the details? MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, but when? MR IRVING: I would have to look at the diaries and see. Let me read on. MR RAMPTON: According to the diary entries we have here, certainly not until towards the end of 1994. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, that is my impression. MR IRVING: 1991, in March 23rd 1991, do you have that entry? A. Yes. Q. This again shows that Althans lied to us. He dos not care if we get arrested. This was the famous Leuchter congress. He had made arrangements. He lied us to us about what we were permitted to do under the law. What arrangements he made with the police. He was negotiating the whole time with the police, was he not, in Germany? The whole time? He was doing things in a legal way? A. But, again, see the context. Q. I beg your pardon? A. See the context. I mean this was quite an event of hardcore revisionists, including some of the worst we have in Europe, Peter Varela. Q. Mr ---- A. Mr Ahmed Remer. Q. --- Althans had rented the Deutsches Museum. Is that a very prestigious building in Munich? A. Yes, and the problems became not because he has rented as . P-42 a person for scientific Congress, but because of the scope and of the content of this so-called Leuchter, Fred Leuchter Congress. Q. Yes. A. So the authorities said this cannot be, it is not in line with the law that forbids Holocaust denier to state, to stage as was done. Q. How did the authorities know what was going to be said? A. Oh. Q. Did they decide in advance to ban meetings because they are frightened that people may come out with politically incorrect views or what? A. I think the Munich authorities at that time knew a lot because of the experience of the year before. Q. But you agree that Althans was trying to do things in a responsible way? He had rented one of the most prestigious lecture theatres in Munich. He organised speakers to come along. The lecture theatre then violated the contract, is that correct, forcing the meeting to be held outside in the open air on the steps with the permission of the police, is that a correct summary? A. I do not know. I do not see -- no, I would disagree with that. Q. Which part do you disagree with? I cannot allow you to disagree without asking you why. A. The whole perception of this scenery you described in your . P-43 sentences, I cannot go with it. I know that, according to your diary, he, Althans, was not careful enough to circumvent this kind of interaction with the police and then this ban to speak there and the decision of the Museum to speak there because they knew what will come. So, if I may say, if I would have, if I would have done it I would have been in the same problems, technical problems, Althans went into because of the content of it. Believe me, it is not, it is a technical problem that he cannot do it. It is not, the real problem is that the whole Leuchter Congress was so disgusting and so against the law we had and we have that it could not work by any means. Q. These are the laws for suppression of free speech in Germany, is that correct? It is not against any kind of regular laws as accepted, for example, in the United States or in England? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I think when you asked almost exactly the same question about 45 minutes ago, I said I do not think that helps, so it is not going to help now. MR IRVING: Let me try to explain what I am trying to get at. If Mr Althans tries to do things the proper way, he rents the most prestigious lecture theatre, he organizes speakers like myself to come and speak on Churchill and Pearl Harbour, that was my topic, was it not? Was that my topic that day? . P-44 A. So far you said it and according to the video. Q. And does the correspondence not also show that that is my topic that day, my prearranged topic? A. The topic of the Congress was the hardcore Holocaust denials meeting in Munich and to changing, as Althans put it, very politically in his views, in his views, "We will stop with kind of defence revisionism. Now it is time to umdenken, to think anew" ---- THE INTERPRETER: To rethink? A. --- "to rethink for the revolution", so this is something. MR IRVING: But now? A. Again I have just to remind you and with, if I may, your Lordship, just two sentences about the again and again posed question. It is not just a freedom of expression, but you have the constitution. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Funke, I totally understand what Mr Irving is suggesting and what your response is on that, so I think we must move on because this is getting --- - MR IRVING: The position I am trying to get the witness to understand, and your Lordship has not yet received this and it will now come. In view of the fact that the contract was violated, we were, therefore, the organizers were forced in conformity with the police to move the meeting to the outside which is a more extreme position, is it not? They are no longer meeting in the comfort of a lecture theatre but they are out on the street? . P-45 A. Yes, of course. Q. Under police protection. So sometimes the extremism is forced upon them, if I can put it like that? A. If you go out, you are extreme? Q. Well, standing on the back of a truck holding a microphone in your hand looks more extreme than standing in a podium in a lecture theatre, is that right? A. Again I would refer to the content. It is not the appearance as such, the content, the content of the speeches, the content of the reasons to invite a demonstration like in Halle. The content matters. Q. I am moving on. March 25th 1991. "Then to a new press conference by Althans (who was missing)"? A. Wait. Where are we at? Q. March 25th 1991, the diary? A. Ah, OK. Q. This is substantially before 1994, is it not? A. Yes. Q. "New press conference organised by Althans (who was missing). Further shambles". Then two days later, no, yes, one day later, March 26th: "Althans told the press I was at the April 21st 1990 march (untrue)". Have you noticed that and why did you not refer to that? A. I have to go to the letter itself, right? Q. No, it is the diary. March 26th 1991. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, I do not think we need to look at the . P-46 letter. A. Where do I get... MR IRVING: The diary, March 26th 1991. Do you have extracts from the diary there, my diary? A. No. Q. You do not? A. But maybe you just quote it. Q. Just the first line, that is March 26th 1991. A. "The text from BFP, want me to speak May 10th, DVU, Althans told press I was at 21st April march (untrue)". Q. That is this demonstration, the illegal demonstration? A. Yes. Q. I put in my diary that Althans is telling the press that I was on it and this is untrue. A. You say? Yes, you say. Q. Why would I lie to my own diary? A. April 14th 1992, which is two years before 1994, "I am getting fed up with Althans. It is impossible to make dates". April 29th 1992, "Faxes from Althans". MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am getting really puzzled by this, Mr Irving. You have just referred to an entry ---- MR IRVING: Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: --- where you said it was untrue that you had been at a meeting on 21st April. A. On the march after. MR IRVING: On the march? . P-47 A. Afterwards, you know. MR JUSTICE GRAY: On the march, I see. MR IRVING: On this march afterwards, yes, the famous march to the Vertherren Halle? A. One of the things. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I follow. I am sorry. I did not realise it was the march, not the meeting. MR IRVING: Precisely, my Lord. In my private diary I make quite plain that this is untrue and these diaries, of course, have been available to the Defence and yet they are still persisting in their contention that I was on it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. If I may say so, Mr Irving, I have got the diary entries. Of course, if there is some missing diary entry that you want to rely on, put it to Professor Funke, but I do not really find it very helpful just going through odd entries. Could you not put your case in relation to Althans more broadly? I mean, it may be you have put it effectively already. MR IRVING: I did put it broadly, my Lord. Althans is one of the major figures, in my view. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. MR IRVING: And I have three more one line episodes to put to this witness which again emphasise the fact that relations had broken down very early on. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Remember it is the wood that I need to look at rather than the trees. I mean, that is the . P-48 point really. I can see the correspondence goes on between you until 1993 into 1994. So odd entries are not necessarily going to help enormously -- '95. MR IRVING: If your Lordship has seen the odd entries, my Lord, and one example of the entries you have noticed is the one about the demonstration. MR RAMPTON: It is right to point out (and everybody should be aware of it) that these, I do not know quite what, the abstracts at the front of each section in the RWE files are not, I think I have said it before, exhaustive. That can cut both ways. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I appreciate they are a selection, yes. MR RAMPTON: They are a selection. There is a huge amount of material on the cutting room floors, as Miss Rogers puts it. MR IRVING: And they are not agreed bundles either, my Lord, in this respect.
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