Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day028.02
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much, Professor Funke, for
        those three points.  Mr Irving?
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I do not think your Lordship will attach
        much attention to whether other members of the audience
        went off on a demonstration which was illegal or not.
        I would invite straightaway, therefore, this witness to

.          P-9


        have a look at page 11 of the little bundle.
   A.   This new one or the old one.
   MR IRVING:  It is today's bundle.
   A.   Today's bundle?  OK.
   Q.   It is the bundle beginning with some German pages.  If you
        look at page 11, that should be the diary concerned, April
        21st 1990, is that correct?
   A.   No, I have here ----
   Q.   No, not photographs.  It is another bundle.
   A.   Excuse me.  It is a new bundle of yesterday?
   Q.   Of today.
   A.   Today, OK, good.
   Q.   Page 11.  Is this the diary entry to which you have just referred?
   A.   It seems to, yes, in a different written form.
   Q.   A different format, yes?
   A.   Yes, format.
   Q.   My Lord, I do not propose to read the whole diary entry
        out, of course, but I would just invite this witness - ---
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If Miss Rogers can give me the reference in
        RWE 1 or 2, I would be grateful for this diary entry,
        April 21st.
   MS ROGERS:  If it is on 21st April, it is RWE 2, tab 11, pages
        19 to 20.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, what I have given your Lordship in this
        morning's bundle is the entire diary entry.  I am not sure

.          P-10



        how far the entry has been redacted, if at all, in RW- ---
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us move on with it.
   MR IRVING:  Would you just run your eye down those two pages
        which I have given you?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Beginning with the first page, page 11, the second paragraph?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Beginning with the phrase:  "The audience stormed out into
        the streets"?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   "Taking about half an hour to assemble outside, I remained
        inside", does it say that?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   How could I have joined a demonstration if I remained inside?
   A.   Look ----
   Q.   Selling books, pack ----
   A.   --- look further down to your own diary.
   Q.   Then it says:  "Job finished.  The driver suggested he
        drive me to the Hotel Dreilogen?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Via the route", in other words, "driving by the route
        taken by this spontaneous demonstration"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So I was not part of the demonstration; I was driving past

.          P-11



        it to see what the fuss was because there had been police
        flashing lights, and so on?  Right?
   A.   I see it.
   Q.   "I got out of the car" -- this is four lines from the
        bottom "because I sighted my dinner guests.  Crossed to
        say hello to them.  There was some annoyance on the part
        of the demonstrators that I had not been with them".  Did
        you see that?  Why did you not quote that?
   A.   Right, right.
   Q.   I was not part of the demonstration.  I do not really
        want, unless you wish to draw attention to any other parts
        of that diary entry?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I suspect he wants to read on to the bottom
        of the page, is that right?
   A.   Shall I read it to the court?
   Q.   No.  Read the bits of it that you rely on.
   MR IRVING:  Yes.
   A.   So, "I sighted Uschi who had invited me to dinner.  Got
        out of car after Daniel Hecht", I think, "crossed to say
        hello to them.  Some annoyance on the 250's part that
        I had not been with them.  I explained I had to pack
        things up.  Two minutes later police trucks arrived with
        reinforcements.  Announced over loud speakers, 'Dieses ist
        ein angemieldete Sammlung, es ist verbotten.  Sie haben
        alle nach Hausen zugehen'". "This is an illegal
        demonstration".  I can translate it shortly.  If you want

.          P-12



        it precise, do it, yes.
   THE INTERPRETER:  "This is a translation (sic) which no notice
        has been given of.  It is forbidden.  You are all
        requested to go home"?
   A.   Right.  And I refer to this being "forbidden" in my
        report  ----
   THE INTERPRETER:  Ordered to go home?
   A.   --- or words to that effect.
   Q.   Can I ask?
   A.   He adds, so then:  "Road cordons were thrown across the
        street ahead of us and we were told to filter through
        single and disperse.  I found myself in an embarrassing
        position, unwilling to desert audience, but equally
        unwilling to end up being coshed by a policeman".
   Q.   Coshed by a policeman?
   A.   Yes.  "I filtered forwards and after minutes hold up I was
        allowed through by the cordons.  30 seconds later I was
        arrested by a small Italian-looking moustached police
        officer aged perhaps 35 who declared me to be a
        versammlungsleiter".
   Q.   We do not need the rest.
   A.   This is the point.  If you take this part and see the
        video, there is the moustached and so forth officer and
        you see before, you know, a march route of a given
        people.  In the front Mr Irving, behind Michael Kuhnen.
        So, of course, it was some minutes, but you were asked by

.          P-13



        the crowd to enter and you did.
   MR IRVING:  You say some minutes.  Can I ask you about the time-scale?
   A.   I do not know the time-scale.  I just saw the video and
        I saw your diary and I saw another clip of Althans given
        to Zundel or by Zundel presenting the case further down in
        this document.
   Q.   Can I draw your attention to the second line of that
        second paragraph on page 11:  "I remained inside selling
        the books, packaging them up and supervising their loading
        into the two cars".  How long do you think that took?
   A.   I do not know.
   Q.   œ2,000 worth of books had to be packaged into boxes, the
        boxes sealed, loaded into two cars -- three quarters of an
        hour, an hour?
   A.   I have no problem with that.  I did not say you went all
        along, I do not know, maybe.  There is, by the way, if
        I may add this, there is a longer version of this video,
        and if it is necessary, if this is a decisive point for
        the assessment, if I may add ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It does not strike me as a decisive point.  I
        think we can move on.
   A.   Then I would ask to get this to the court, but it is very
        difficult because it is in the hands of Michael Schmidt
        and I have to figure out where he is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I know what the issue is.

.          P-14



   MR IRVING:  One more question and this is will you accept,
        because I asked you this question two or three times
        yesterday, the video shows clearly that these rather
        bestraggled demonstrators are actually returning from the
        demonstration they had been off to at the time I joined
        them and they are heading north ----
   A.   That does not fit.
   Q.   Excuse me, they are heading north at the time I joined
        them, in other words, it is all over -- and do you
        remember me asking you these questions yesterday?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And you made out that you could not recognize the victory
        monument behind them and so on?
   A.   There is no probability for that.  You know, it fits so
        well with what you are writing in the diary and what is
        shown in the video that I cannot say "yes" to this question.
   Q.   So you do not accept that it took me one hour to load the
        boxes of books into the car and to drive off to the hotel
        and then come back and find the demonstrators walking back
        from their demonstration at this time this misfortune happened?
   A.   I mean, you had a lot of books to sell, but you need not
        an hour.  I do not know how long it took.
   Q.   Very well.  Would you now just have a brief look at
        photographs, please?  The second bundle of photographs.

.          P-15

        We will go through these very quickly.  Photographs 1 and
        2 are photographs of a meeting of the DVU.  Can you see
        their flag around the podium?
   A.   No, not with this coverage, I mean.
   Q.   All right.
   A.   I cannot see.
   Q.   If you look at the people sitting in the audience there,
        can you see any skinheads or bovver boots?
   A.   I cannot see.  It is so dark, you see, your Lordship.  I
        cannot see it.  Maybe ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Look at page 2.  It is better.
   MR IRVING:  Perhaps you can borrow mine a second.
   A.   That is better, excuse me.
   Q.   Can you see any skinheads or bovver boots or musclemen?
   A.   I cannot say yes or no, because, you know, in the first,
        in the first lines they are all with ties and, you know,
        as DVU presents itself.
   Q.   And the next photograph is a bit clearer?
   A.   But I cannot say yes to your question because afterwards
        it is totally unclear and I know that DVU has this kind of
        skinhead appearances.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that is that photograph.
   MR IRVING:  Can you see any banners around the hall with
        anti-Semitic slogans or Holocaust slogans or anything at all?
   A.   No.

.          P-16

   Q.   No banners at all?
   A.   No.
   Q.   The next photograph, page 3, please?
   A.   3?
   Q.   Does this appear to be police protecting a rather pleasant
        country building against a number of young people?
   A.   It seems to.
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   What is it?
   Q.   It is in Cologne.  I will have to tell you, you will have
        to just take my word for where these places are.  The
        places are not important really.  The next photograph,
        photograph 5 -- we will just go through them very quickly
         -- is the Congress Centre in Hamburg?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   Do you see again a line of police protecting the building
        against, no doubt, unfriendly people outside?
   A.   I cannot say unfriendly, I just see police caps.
   Q.   Shoulder to shoulder, massed against -- protecting the
        entrance to the building?
   A.   I cannot say anything else because it is unclear.  I do
        not know where and when, so...
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   You may say.
   Q.   Would you like to have a look at photograph No. 9,
        please?  This is the Palace of Culture from Dresden which

.          P-17

        is one of the lectures you refer to, 13th February 1990,
        I think.  There are no kinds of banners or placards or
        anything anywhere, are there?
   A.   It seems not.  There is a picture, you know, I think you
        are speaking there, and ----
   Q.   And a picture of myself on the podium?
   A.   Yes, seems to, but I do not know what is written around,
        above and...
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, we cannot read that.
   MR IRVING:  Photograph No. 10 is obviously some years earlier?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Does it look as though I am addressing members of the
        German Bundeswehr that this is obviously a function  - ---
   A.   Yes, seems to, at least the uniforms they are wearing.
   Q.   Photograph No. 11 is the Leuchter press conference to
        which you refer.  It is a sparsely attended press
        conference?
   A.   Where is it?
   Q.   Have you got photograph No. 11?
   A.   Yes, but where?
   Q.   It is in my home in London.
   A.   OK.
   Q.   Photograph 12, another typical speech that I address in
        Germany?
   A.   Where is it?
   Q.   That is somewhere in Battenwurtenburg, Singlfingen,

.          P-18

        I think?
   A.   Is it Dria?
   Q.   I beg your pardon?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, it does not really matter, does it?
        I am not sure these photographs are helping all that much,
        Mr Irving.
   MR IRVING:  There are no placards, no skinheads.  No. 14,
        I think you probably have my labels now?
   A.   Yes, Hagenau you say?
   Q.   No. 14 is Hagenau.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Can you see any of your suspects in that photograph?
   A.   What are you saying?
   Q.   Any of your suspects, like Remer or Kussel or any of these
        names you are talking about?  Are they in that photograph
        or the next one?
   A.   I have to put up this...
   Q.   These photographs were all available for discovery, my
        Lord, and not used.  Photograph No. 16 ----
   A.   Wait, wait.  I have to see the people.  Excuse me.  It is
        not so easy.  You know better.  It is just 10 faces to 10
        faces, right, to see and whatever 80, I cannot see.
   Q.   Would you say it is a very extremist just by the look of it?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, you cannot possibly answer from the
        backs of people's heads whether they are extremist.

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