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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.07


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.07
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Who did the editing, that is the point?
   A.   Of course, Michael Schmidt did the editing.  He shortened
        it and, of course, they had a longer version given by the
        organizers of this conference, that is to say, by Zundel

.          P-55



        or Christopherson, so far as s I recall, by Zundel.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You say Schmidt is a Revisionist himself?
   A.   No.  Michael Schmidt did ask to film the scene, and that
        caused, later on, a lot of problems for Schmidt and the
        scene.  They got in an argument, but he managed to make a
        long film.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  But is Schmidt a right-wing extremist?
   A.   No, he is not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is not?
   A.   So far, he presents himself in the public and buys
        literature.
   MR IRVING:  He has written a book, has he not?
   A.   Right.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, I think the question that you are really
        asking is who has edited this film that is in the machine.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I was not asking that.
   MR IRVING:  It has been re-edited by the Defence solicitors, of
        course.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Sorry, can you just remain silent for a
        moment.  Has it been re-edited by your team?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, but it has been re-edited in such a way - -
        yes, is the answer, I think.  Can I just find out what
        actually did happen, because I was not there.  (Pause for
        consultation).  Yes, now I do have the full story.  That is
        taken from Schmidt's film, my Lord, which was broadcast on

.          P-56



        Dispatches in this country.  The commentary is in English
        with a German accent, as one can hear.  What Miss Rogers
        and the solicitors did was to take out as much editorial
        content as they possibly could, including emotive stuff
        like music, if it has not an original place in the
        programme, and as much commentary as possible.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, If that were true, of course, there would
        be English subtitles as well, but there are not any.  How
        would the English Dispatches audience have understood what
        David Irving was saying in German.
   MR RAMPTON:  Because the commentary is in English in a German accent.
   MR IRVING:  We have listened to it ourselves.  It is me
        speaking in German, it is Zundel speaking in German and
        there are no subtitles at all.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is not commentary; that is original speech
        about putting Jews into telephone boxes so as to kill them.
   MR IRVING:  It has been twice edited and is a totally
        unsatisfactory document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It seems really to have been edited three
        times, probably originally by the people who organized
        Hagenau, then by Schmidt and then by your team.
   MR RAMPTON:  It matters not the slightest.  If Mr Irving
        disputes that that is him speaking those words in that
        company with those other people there, by all means let

.          P-57



        him do so but, once he accepts that that is an authentic
        record, not a complete record but an authentic record of
        what happened, then it becomes admissible evidence.  What
        weight is attached to it is another question.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it is right as far as the identity of
        other people are concerned.  I am not happy with using
        what they said in the absence of a ----
   MR IRVING:  Complete transcription.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  --- of at least a translation.  So shall we
        carry on for the moment?  We can come back to these films
        when there is a translation available, but shall we carry
        on for the moment just using them to illustrate who was
        present at these meetings who Professor Funke is able to
        identify.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, the volume control will solve the
        problem.  If the sound was turned down ----
   MR RAMPTON:  No. When Mr Irving is speaking, I want his words heard.
   MR IRVING:  These are the redacted words as selected by the Defence.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What I am going to say is that we will
        certainly use these films to see who was at the various
        meetings.  If reliance is placed on what Mr Irving said at
        the meetings, then there must be a translation made rather
        than have it translated in the way that it is at the moment.

.          P-58



   MR RAMPTON:  There will be.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   So, shall we proceed on that basis?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.

                  (The video taped continued).

   Q.   Who is the man in the middle clapping?
   A.   This is again Ernst Zundel to the right of the middle and
        to the left is Staglich.
   Q.   Thank you.  Sitting next to each other?
   A.   Right.
   Q.   That is that one I think.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is Hagenau.
   MR RAMPTON:  Now comes Munich, I think, in April 1990, does it
        not?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  20th - 22nd April, is that right?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   A.   The 21st.
   Q.   Again, this is taken from the Dispatches programme.
   A.   Your Lordship, the 21st.
   Q.   This is altogether a bigger event.

                  (The video tape continued).

   Q.   Pause there, please.
   A.   In the middle to the left, this is Raymund Bachman.
   Q.   Who is he?
   A.   He is an Austrian right-wing extremist who is perceived as
        a very good speaker.  Then to the right of the middle,
        this is the Althans.

.          P-59



   Q.   In the middle?
   A.   In the middle to the right, the right to Mr Bachman, the
        next is Ewald Althans and the third person is also active
        in this scene, but I cannot recall the name.  I can check
        it if I have a bit of time.
   Q.   What does the rest of the banner above the hand say?
   A.   "Wahrheit macht frei" David Irving and the like, I do not know.
   MR IRVING:  "Ein Englander kemft um die jede Deutschlands".
   A.   "Ein Englander kemft um die jede Deutschlands", thank you,
        Mr Irving.
   MR RAMPTON:  We know, but what is the message of "Wahrheit
        macht frei" in this context?
   A.   It means basically that truth produces freedom and relief,
        and that truth is related to a rechange of the Holocaust
        history.
   Q.   Does is have any resonance with some language used during
        the Nazi period?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think we all know.
   A.   It has resonance to "Arbeit macht frei".
   Q.   Which we find where?
   A.   In the concentration camps but, of course, I do not know
        if this is directly related to it but it has
        undercurrents.
   Q.   You can leave that guesswork to us, thank you, Professor.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.

.          P-60



                  (The video tape continued).

   A.   This is Michael Kuhnen.  This man in the middle now, you see him.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:   With the dark hair.
   MR RAMPTON:  Without the glasses.
   MR IRVING:  Which one?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Dark hair, without the glasses.
   A.   Right to the person with the glasses.  You see it?
   MR RAMPTON:  That one?
   A.   This one, right, excuse me.  This is -- excuse me.
   MR IRVING:  That is Remer.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Staglich?
   A.   Yes, to the right one.  This is, in the middle, Otto Ernst
        Remer.

                  (Video continues.)

   A.   This speaker says that Michael Kuhnen is in the meeting
        and also Manfred Roeder.  Manfred Roeder was convicted by
        a court of having done terrorist activities against asylum
        seekers.  He got out of prison some time before this event.
   Q.   What terrible things did he do to asylum seekers?
   A.   He arsoned their house.
   Q.   Arsoned?
   MR IRVING:  Set fire to it.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, set fire to it.
   A.   Set fire, thank you.

.          P-61



   Q.   Were the people inside?
   A.   Two people were killed.
   Q.   You say he is welcomed to this meeting?
   A.   Yes.
   MR IRVING:  He was a lawyer, was he not?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, will you get your chance.  I do
        not really think we can make this too conversational.
   A.   OK.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   A.   But I may state that Manfred Roeder is not Jurgen Rieger -
        this is a very famous right-wing extremist lawyer.

                  (The video tape continued).

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we pause there.  Do you recognise that man?
   MR IRVING:  It's Anthony Hancock.
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Who is Anthony Hancock?  We will not have evidence
        from Mr Irving at this stage.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We do not have want Dispatches conclusions
        after that.
   MR RAMPTON:   What?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  We do not want Dispatches conclusions after
        their detective work; we want this there witness to identify.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, I want to know what this witness says.  I do
        not want to hear Mr Irving says either.

.          P-62



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Anyway, you said Hancock?
   A.   Tony or Anthony Hancock, it is put differently.  He is one
        of the very active British revisionists, active also in a
        political sense, and in close connection to David Irving,
        very close.

                  (The video continues.)

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we pause there.  I am not understanding
        what this is being used for.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is Mr Hancock lying about his name and his
        reason for being there.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So what, if I may say so?
   MR RAMPTON:  Well, it is there; it does no do any harm.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I think it possibly does.  All I am
        concerned to get out of this, as I understand it, is who
        was present at the meetings at which Mr Irving either
        spoke or was himself present.
   MR RAMPTON:  This is such a person.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well fine, but we have established that he
        was there.  Why do we have him being evasive on camera,
        because that seems to me to be prejudicial without being probative.
   MR RAMPTON:  It may be so, but the fact is this witness has
        told your Lordship that this man has a close connection
        with Mr Irving.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, fine, but the fact he is lying
        presumably out of Mr Irving's hearing seems me to be

.          P-63



        stretching this all too far.
   MR RAMPTON:  No.  If he has a reason to lie, it may be inferred
        in this context what it is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can we fast forward to the next bit which
        identifies somebody else as having being present.

                  (The video continues.)

   MR RAMPTON:  I think we do need to see those gentlemen.  Who
        are they?
   A.   These are Munich skinheads, staging something - it is
        difficult do explain ----
   MR IRVING:  It is a stunt.
   A.   It is very simple, on the other hand.  They are staging a
        thing that was already staged in 1978.  It is a repetition
         ----
   MR RAMPTON:  Right.
   A.   Where Christian Worch, the same Christian Worch, and
        Michael Kuhnen said similar things.  Here it is said:
        "I ass believe still what is told to me".  It is a clear
        reference to the so-called Auschwitz lie.
   Q.   You mean:  "I am an ass because I believe that Auschwitz
        happened"?
   A.   Excuse me.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, "I just believe everything I am told".
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, including Auschwitz, is that right?
   A.   It is a clear-cut reference to the ideas of the Holocaust
        denier, that it did not happen but:  "I, ass, believe that

.          P-64



        it was told that Holocaust happened".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Professor Funke, is this something that was
        done on stage, as it were, at the meeting in Munich on the
        21st April?
   A.   It was on stage during this Congress, 21st April, in
        Munich.
   Q.   On 21st April?
   A.   1990.
   Q.   On stage, as it were?
   A.   On stage.

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