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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.06


Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day027.06
Last-Modified: 2000/07/25

   Q.   No, Gerhard Frey?
   A.   Gerhard Frey, this not legalized extremist party, then you
        have the interaction we talked about, the Gunter Deckert
        of NPD then in the '90s radicalized NPD, and you have the
        neo-Nazis we spoke about at the beginning.  So you have a
        whole, you know, if you want to centre Irving, you can do
        so.  You know, they are the revisionists, if I may say so,
        they are the neoNazis, they are the Austrians, not so
        intense, intense, the DVU Frey, the Deckert NPD, the
        Althans, the Philipp person as person transmitters and,
        you know, organizers.  Then there is another bunch of
        people out of the late '70s and early '80s of the then
        active network of right-wing extremists -- just I could
        name some of them.
   Q.   We will stay with what we have at the moment because it is
        already rather indigestible.  Could we have a look at that
        beautiful document?  When did you make it?
   A.   In the last days.
   Q.   Yes.  I have not seen it before.
   A.   Because to get, you know ----

.          P-46



   Q.   Could I have a look at it because if it looks impressive,
        we had better have it copied.  Mr Irving will see it too
        in a moment.  It is slightly untidy, Professor.
   A.   Yes, I know.  My writing is limited to the degree of being
        very clear, clean.
   MR IRVING:  Perhaps you could wait until we see how many names
        we can knock off this before he makes the ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not particularly enthusiastic about this.
   MR RAMPTON:  Right.  Give the drawing back to the Professor
        then.  I can tell your Lordship this, that there are diary
        entries in Mr Irving's diary for November 1989 which
        describe a speaking tour of Spain starting on -- it is a
        very short one, two days, three days.
   A.   Yes, I recall.
   Q.   Four days.  That is not short.  I could not speak for four
        days.  Four days starting on November 17th 1989 seems to
        have been organized by Verala?
   A.   That is what I meant.
   Q.   That is what you meant, yes.
   A.   Thank you.
   Q.   There is also a Rami section, my Lord, in the RWE files in
        the second one at tab 18.  Thank you very much.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not got a tab 18.  I did look for Rami
        and I ----
   MR RAMPTON:  He is right at the back.

.          P-47



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  He is not in the index, but at the back.  You
        are quite right.
   MR RAMPTON:  He is not in the index, but he is at the back.
        There is not an awful lot on him.  I think seven
        entries  ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.
   MR RAMPTON:  --- involving Mr Irving.  Thank you, Professor,
        for the moment.  We will need your help because I am now
        going to show these tapes.  Miss Rogers, my Lord, before
        we start looking at the films, has prepared a
        chronological, not exhaustive, list of Mr Irving's
        speeches starting in January 1983 and ending in November
        1988 upon which your Lordship will find or in which your
        Lordship will find the three or four that we are going to
        look at now.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Thank you very much.  Where shall we put that?
   MR RAMPTON:  In front of RWE1, I should have thought.  One for
        the witness, I think.  Who is going to control this -- --
   MR IRVING:  This is not an exhaustive list of speeches, is it?
   MR RAMPTON:  No, I said it was not.
   MR IRVING:  It is a very selective list.  I mean, in some years
        I spoke 190 times in one year.
   MR RAMPTON:  I quite agree.  When Mr Irving is speaking to the
        East Grinstead RSPCA I have not put in a ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is selective.

.          P-48



   MR RAMPTON:  It is selective indeed.  I would like to show
the
        tapes.  Where are the tapes, is the first question?
        I think, my Lord, the safest way of dealing with this,
if
        I may suggest it, is if Miss Rogers is allowed to
stand up
        there, do you mind doing that, and with help stop it
at
        the right places.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, when it comes to the speech upon
Halle,
        I would to like to know whether it is the raw, uncut
        footage they are going to show.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Shall we pause before Halle?  Is Halle
the
        last one?  I have the impression it was.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, Halle is the last one.  I cannot answer
        Mr Irving's question on that, I am afraid, I just do
not
        know.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but he can make his objection to it
then.
        Is there a transcript of Halle?
   MR RAMPTON:  There is not a transcript of any of them.
   A.   But it is a disclosure of -- he is on the website.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, but I would like to see the
transcript
        all the same.  I suspect in the end, Mr Irving, I am
        probably going to have to see it and then form a view
        about your objections, if there is no transcript.
   MR IRVING:  Precisely.  Your Lordship will be familiar from
the
        inter partes correspondence that there was a major
dispute
        about the Halle tape.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I am not conscious of that at all.

.          P-49



   MR IRVING:  It was concealed from me in discovery and I had
to
        conduct several interlocutory actions under the rules
of
        discovery to force the -- it was accidently discovered
to
        me, the raw tapes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Anyway, you got it in the end.
   MR IRVING:  And we had a lot of trouble over it.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, may I sit while this is going on.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course, please.
   A.   This is in Hagenau, if I may say.
   MR RAMPTON:  It seems to be a still.
                  (The video tape was played)
   MR RAMPTON:  Can we stop there, please?  Who is that
speaking
        in the middle?
   A.   This person to the left -- maybe David Irving can help
us.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, I am not sure that is quite the way
to
        conduct this.
   MR IRVING:  I would be happy to assist if I recognize him.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I will not ask you to, let us
just
        see what the witness can say.
   MR IRVING:  It is not Valendi, as far as I know.
   A.   I am not sure.  That is why -- but I heard that he
        organized the debate.
   MR RAMPTON:  Who is the one in the middle with the stripy
tie?
   A.   Now, in the back not seeing is Ernst Zundel, to the
right
        it is Faurisson.
   Q.   So it is Faurisson -- can we just go back a couple of

.          P-50



        frames?
   A.   This is Ernst Zundel in the back.
   Q.   Yes, I see.  That is Faurisson on the right with the
        stripe with the white shirt, is it?
   A.   On the right side.
   Q.   Thank you.
                    (The video continued to be played)
   A.   "I would have given a gift to him when I realized that
he
        was here".  That is the gist.  "So this devil lie that
        this Juden pack that the Jews gave to us Germans".
That
        is a reference to the so-called Holocaust lie.  This
was a
        last sentence.
   MR IRVING:  I was not aware we were going to be shown
edited
        gobbets like this.  We have no idea what that little
piece
        or snatch of conversation was, whether he was quoting
from
        a book or quoting from something that was said or
what.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I do not think he is was quoting from
a
        book.  I think, Mr Irving, I understand your concern
        but  ----
   MR IRVING:  If we are just looking at a rogues gallery,
that is
        perfectly proper use of this footage.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think in the end what is going to have
to
        happen is that I see all this material because it is
        impossible for me to form a view because I do not know
        what is coming next.  We have not seen you at all but
I
        know you were there, so I expect we are going to see
you.

.          P-51



   MR IRVING:  Well, we do not know if I am actually there at
the
        time these people were there or whether they are
saying
        that or not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us wait and see when you feature.
   MR IRVING:  It has been heavily edited there, of course.
   A.   There to the back, if I may say so, this is the person
in
        the middle now, Christian Worch.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  The young one?
   A.   The young one, right, in the middle, right in the
middle.
        This was just a second back, if I may ask you -- now
go
        further -- this person, so far I can identify him, of
        course it is with limits, as you can imagine, on the
right
        side, seems to be Staglich.
   MR RAMPTON:  With his head by the window?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Stop there, please.  What is Mr Irving talking about
in
        that extract?
   A.   You know the reference is he is referring to the
alleged
        excesses of eyewitnesses with respect to the Holocaust
        experience.
   Q.   Pause please.
   A.   And then ----
   Q.   No, pause.  When you said "excesses", do you mean that
        there are more survivors than there should be?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I think exaggerations I think is the
        sense.

.          P-52



   MR RAMPTON:  Exaggerations, that is why I interrupted you.
   A.   Yes, and with this he very cynically, I would say,
says
        OK, "There was one, there was just one", that is the
gist
        of it, so far as I read it.  Maybe there can be more
        correct translations of these wordings.  "There is one
man
        gas chamber there, you know, a kind of Sedan chair and
        soldiers carried that around the landscape and then,
like
        a telephone cell, you have a ring and the soldier
says,
         'OK, it is for you, Jew'".  So this is the gist of it
so
        far I read it but ----
   MR IRVING:  Excuse me.
   A.   --- of course Mr Irving said it so he may ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Just pause.
   A.   --- translate it more precisely.
   MR IRVING:  The word was not "excuse you", "it is for you,
        Jew".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, we are going to get into a
frightful
        tangle if we are going to go through the films having
        simultaneous translations.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, no, not simultaneous translations, but it
        would be a false exercise on my part if Mr Irving were
        talking about the wild flowers in Alsace at that
point.
        One has to know what the gist of these meetings were
        about  ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I quite agree.  No, I am just thinking it
is
        better ----

.          P-53



   MR RAMPTON:  --- for them to have any point at all.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Don't let us all talk at once it would be
        better if we had a translation.
   MR RAMPTON:  It would be much better if we had a
translation.
        Before we close the case we will get translations and
        transcripts, I expect.  I will do my very best, but at
the
        moment, I am sorry, we do not have them.
   THE INTERPRETER:  It is easy to translate phrase by phrase,
        this passage.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry, I cannot hear.
   THE INTERPRETER:  It is easy to translate this passage
phrase
        by phrase.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That will take a very long time.
   MR RAMPTON:  Don't let us do that now.
   MR IRVING:  The other point I would ask in cross-
examination of
        this particular passage is that we have seen me
speaking,
        we have heard me speaking and now we see instantly
picture
        cross-cuts to a laughing audience, and we have no way
of
        knowing, for they have only got one camera there, and
it
        is done by clever editing.  We do not know what they
are
        laughing at.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I understand that point.  Whether it is a
        good one or not, I am not so sure, but I understand
the
        point you are making.
   MR IRVING:  It is the editing point again, my Lord.  Your
        Lordship would not allow the introduction of an edited

.          P-54



        document in which bits have been put in and bits have
been
        taken out.  This is a document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I entirely understand the point.  Mr
Rampton,
        can you tell me this, and I should have asked before
you
        started playing it, who actually made this film?  ----
   A.   That was done by those who organized the conference.
   MR RAMPTON:  I see.
   A.   It was then given to Michael Schmidt.  Michael Schmidt
was
        the person who was in this revisionist and the other
scene
        for quite a period of time, and then had four days of
        videos.  He was given this video by one of the main
        organizers, so far as I recall, and by Ernst Zundel
        himself.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right, let us carry on.
   MR RAMPTON:  I just want to chase that up.  Did Schmidt then
        make a documentary film using this material?
   A.   Yes, he did so, but the basic clips, of whatever he had of
        ours, of course, documented by the documenter of this
        conference, so we have again a problem of documents.
   Q.   So far as we can tell, that is original film of the
        meeting at which we saw Mr Irving.
   A.   Organized by themselves.

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