Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day026.09 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 Q. It is the local man, is it not? A. Yes. Q. Bracht and he spends the evening with Gauleiter Bracht? A. Yes. Q. Next day, which is again a Saturday, 18th, he goes from Auschwitz to Catovitz and he goes from there to Lublin, . P-75 yes? A. Yes. Q. Where he meets Kruge, Globocnik and somebody called Schelenberg. Is Schelenberg a significant figure in this story or not? A. Schelenberg was, as far as I am aware, head of the Auslans, the special espionage service of the SDs -- thank you very much. Q. If you turn over the page we see a family photograph on the left-hand side of these people actually in the Stammlager at Auschwitz. Then the right-hand side at 9 o'clock in the evening he meets with Kruge Pohl who is head of the concentration camp system, right? A. Yes, Kruge is the SS and police leader of the Generalgouvernement. Q. Oh, right. So he is the SS -- and what position is Globocnik then? A. Well, Globocnik is the SS and police leader, so the man who has the overall responsibility for the SS of police forces in the district of Lublin. Q. Of Lublin. So Kruge is Globocnik's superior? A. Yes, the highest SS police leader. Q. But Pohl is there in a different capacity because he is the head of the concentration camp system, is that right? A. Yes. Q. And so we come to the 19th over the page, 252, I think . P-76 I am on, but I may be wrong. MR JUSTICE GRAY: 53. MR RAMPTON: Sunday 19th, he goes to Travniki. What happened at Travniki? A. At this day? Q. Yes, 8.30 in the morning on Sunday 19th? A. Well, this it says: "Inspection of a schutzmanschaft battalion. This is an auxiliary police battalion. So we know that this Travniki men were used as guards in concentration camps -- in particular in extermination camps. Q. So was it, in effect, a training sort of establishment? A. Yes. Q. Then he goes back to Lublin in the evening and at 8 o'clock he has a meal with Globocnik and what is the abbreviation "NSCHL"? A. Sorry? Q. Bottom part of the page, [German- document not provided] Globocnik and then "Anschleisen"? A. Yes, Anschleisen, after that. Q. Then there is a meeting or a conversation is it? A. Yes, followed by "versprechen" is a ---- Q. Discussion? A. --- meeting yes. Q. With Kruge and somebody called Rickert? A. Yes. . P-77 Q. Then on Monday, finally, on Monday 20th, he leaves at half past 12 midday back for Berlin, is that right? A. Yes. Q. From Lublin? A. Yes. Q. Then if you turn over, please, to page, I think it is 254 or 53/54, this is taken from the second part of your report, a letter that Himmler wrote, apparently, to Kruge on 19th July while he was still in Lublin. Do you see that? A. Yes. Q. Can you look at the German for us, please? A. Yes. Q. Which is in a printed document. It does not matter what it is because there is no dispute about this letter. He says: "I order that the umsiedlung which literally translated means what? A. Literally "resettlement". Q. Yes, "of the whole of the Jewish population of the General Government shall be ended by 31st -- carried out and ended by 31st September 1942", is that right? A. That is right. Q. How do you take the word "umsiedlung" in that context. A. Yes, in this context, also dealt with in the glossary, I think, it is quite clear that, it is absolutely clear, sorry, that the term "umsiedlung" means in this sense the . P-78 murder, the killing. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Why should it not mean deportation further East from the General Government? A. Because it is clear from other sources that in this context the term "umziedlung" is used as a camouflage word for "killing". And also we know then what happened after the 19th July. The systematic programme to kill the Jews of the General Government started particularly in this month. MR RAMPTON: With a heavy prod from his Lordship, you have got ahead of where I want to be because I am coming to that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry. MR RAMPTON: No. It is important that this little narrative is done in blocks because it does tell a tale when one has been through it with care. Could you translate for us (because it is not in the text that you have translated in your report) could you with the help of your interpreter, if you need it, the second paragraph in this letter from Himmler to ---- A. Yes, the paragraph that starts with "mit dem". Q. Yes, that is it. A. Well, "After the 31st" ---- THE INTERPRETER: By 31st? A. "By 31st December 1942, no person of Jewish origin is allowed to stay in the Generalgouvernement". MR RAMPTON: Yes. . P-79 A. "The only exception -- unless that they are in the sammlager, collective camps, sammlager". MR JUSTICE GRAY: It may be "transit", I do not know. A. No, not "transit". MR RAMPTON: "Collection"? A. Collection, collection camps, I would say. "Sammer" in German means "collection". MR IRVING: "Assembly"? A. "Assembly" is a very good translation. "Assembly", yes, thank you, "assembly camps in Warsaw, Krakau ... Lublin. All other ---- THE INTERPRETER: "All other work volume"? A. "... work volume which employ Jewish labour have to be ended by this date or if the completion is not possible, they have to be moved into one of the assembly camps, the labour assignments or labour", what did we say? THE INTERPRETER: The workforce? A. Yes, "workforce", yes. MR RAMPTON: If I have understood it correctly, all the Jews of the General Government, about how many people are we talking about at this date, July '42? A. In '42, we are talking about roughly 1.9 million. Q. And with the exception of some that are in the assembly camps and will be put to work, all the Jews, the 1.9 million, have got to be resettled, whatever that may mean, by the end of the year? . P-80 A. Yes. Q. That is an order from Himmler? A. Yes. Q. Well, now let us see what happened next, if we may. If you turn over the page to 258, I think it is, there is another entry, I hope, from the Dienst calendar for Saturday, 25th July '42, is there? 259. I am sorry. My numbering has gone wrong again. 259. There we see that -- I do not know where Hagelvalt or Eichenhan are. Hagelvalt is where he lives, is it not, Himmler? A. Well, they now moved to their new headquarters in Ukrainia, as far as I know. So the Hagelvalt is still the code word for Himmler's own headquarters, but he edits this Eichenhan to make sure that this is not the same headquarters in Eastern Prussia. Q. We can see it is a two hour journey. Then once again he has a meal with Hitler. Then there is another of these ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, Hagelvalt is some sort of fairly advanced headquarters? A. Sorry, maybe I made mistake here. Hagelvalt is the code word for his old headquarters in East Prussia and Eichenhan is, as far as I know, the new code name for his new headquarters in Ukrainia. So I think he moved at this date, he moved from ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, Hagelvalt to Eichenhan? . P-81 A. I have to say I am not sure whether Hagelvalt is still the code word for the old headquarter or whether the new headquarter has the same name, is also cold Hagelvalt. I am not sure, I have to say, at the moment. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway, he has lunch with Hitler? A. Yes. MR RAMPTON: He has lunch with Hitler afterwards? A. No, sorry, again Hagelvalt is his headquarter. It has the old name Hagelvalt. He was kept, so Hagelvalt is Himmler's headquarter. It was near Wolfschanze, now it is near Schitomeir(?) ---- Q. So it is a name he just carries around with him? A. Yes, as far as I can see it. Q. He is a bit like Macbeth's enemies, he goes with burning wood on his head, as it were? A. Yes. Q. You may not ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Not a particularly close analogy. MR RAMPTON: It is a wood, I think. A. Yes. Q. Yes, I see. Then after he has had lunch with Hitler, he has a discussion or a meeting with Bormann and Speer. What precisely was Speer's jurisdiction at this date? A. Speer was the Ministry for Armament, armament and munition. Q. Then if you turn over two pages, please, three days after . P-82 that meeting with Hitler, we find, do we not, a document that we glanced at this morning, I hope, a letter which is taken off a microfilm of 28th July 1942 from Himmler to Berger, yes? A. Yes. Q. Who was Berger? A. Berger was the head of the SS Hauptamt, SS main office. Q. The second sentence says: "The occupied Eastern territories will be Jew free", does is it not? Yes? Second sentence [German] -- third. Have I miscounted? MR JUSTICE GRAY: The third sentence. A. Yes, this is in the first paragraph, the third sentence: "The occupied Eastern territories will be free of Jews". MR RAMPTON: Yes. "The carrying out of this very hard order has been placed on my shoulders by the Fuhrer". Is that right? A. Yes. Q. Can you think of a reason why if this operation merely involved transporting large numbers of Polish Jews to, let us say, nice work camps in the White Ruthenian Marshes or the Pripyat Marshes, if they are not the same thing, should have seemed to Himmler to be sehr schwer befehr? A. No, this would not be exceptional because he was responsible for large resettlements of millions of people the years before, so this was not exceptional for him. Q. It would have been a routine administrative operation, . P-83 would it not? A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: The limited order though, correct me if I am wrong, Dr Longerich, which you said related only to the Pripyat Marshes was the instructions about driving the women into the swamps, was it not? A. Yes, this has to be seen in the context of an operation of this SS ---- MR RAMPTON: Yes. A. --- fragen. Q. But that was a year earlier, was it not? A. This was in '41, yes. Q. That was in August '41? A. Yes. Q. And it did not succeed because the women would not sink, is that not right? A. Yes, this is one of the officers reported back ---- Q. That is right. A. --- they could not do it because the ---- Q. The second SS cavalry regiment. A. --- swamps were not deep enough. Q. The water was not deep enough? A. Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: It was your reference to the Pripyat Marshes that made me think back to... MR RAMPTON: I know, but I am coming to the White Ruthenian . P-84 Marshes in a moment which I think are the same thing, though I am open to correction on that. MR IRVING: Can we ask what the witness thinks is meant by the phrase "die Bedesten Ostgebiet"? A. Yes. "die Bedesten Ostgebiet" are the occupied Eastern territories. This is, in the terminology of this time, the occupied Soviet territories, including the territories the Soviet Union had annexed between 1939 and 1941. So the Baltic states, and so on. MR JUSTICE GRAY: But excluding the General Government? A. Normally, the terminology is, "Bedesten Ostgebiet" means the Soviet territories, not the Generalgouvernement.
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