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[Nizkor's transcription included duplicated material, which has
been deleted from this section. The material which was duplicated
is clearly marked below. Page numbers have not been altered, but
numbered pages containing duplicated material are not included.

MR IRVING:  It is difficult at the last minute when documents
  are provided to me by lawyers around the world in doing
  these things.  If your Lordship has any objection, then I
  would not take it further.

[Begin material which was duplicated, exactly, above]

MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I do not.  I think this document is
  rather different from your manuscript and I think we will
  proceed cautiously, but for the moment let us assume it is authentic.
MR IRVING:  If you just look at the first page of this document
  and run your eye over it, is Pohl sending a message to all

. P-21

  the concentration camp commandants, 19 of them, saying:
"It is time to stop the rough and ready measures with
  prisoners.  We are losing them like flies.  We need their
  manpower.  Look after them better"?
A.  Well, first of all, I have to express my reservations
  about this document.  I do not know the context.  I do not
  know the archive.  But on the assumption that this is an
  authentic document, yes, it is a letter to the 19 heads of
  the concentration camps, and obviously the document is
  saying that they have to improve their measures to keep
  prisoners alive, so which is a kind of reference to what
  happened in the camps before, I think.
Q.  Indeed, and paragraph 5 of that first page says:  "Not
  from any false sentimentality but because we need their
  arms and legs because those are helping the German people
  to get to a great victory.  That is why we have got to
  start paying attention to the welfare of the prisoners"?
A.  Yes.  That is stated here in this document.
Q.  Then the next page, page 2, the heading is, "Foodstuffs,
  food, feeding"?
A.  I do not have the time to read now.
Q.  Well, I am just asking you to look at the headings.  That
  all we need, I think.  Page 2 he is talking about the
  feeding.  The following page, paragraph 2, is called
  "Clothing".  Then down to the bottom of that page,
  "Natural Medications" or "Health" ----

. P-22

A.  Yes.
Q.  --- "stuff".
A.  Well, I cannot, you know, I cannot read so fast but under
  "Clothing" it is stated here:  "I decide that during the
  winter, as far as far as available, prisoners should wear
  coats, pullover, socks", so that should give you an idea
  about the standards which actually existed in the
  concentration camps before this letter arrived, and it
  says, it says "as far as available", so it does not
  actually say, "Give the men, you know, proper clothing".
  It is saying, you know, "You can give them socks if they
  are available and nothing more".  So I think this gives
  you a kind of an idea of this.
Q.  Over the page, paragraph 4 is called "Avoiding unnecessary
  exertions".  For example, these frequent parades were they
  were held standing for hours while they were counted
  zielappelle ----
A.  Yes.
Q.  --- are to be kept as short as possible, and so on.  In
  other words, there seems to be a reversal of existing
  policy because they are losing prisoners like flies to
  what I would call non-violent causes.
A.  That is your interpretation, yes.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Well, what is yours?
A.  Well, they started in the concentration camps a programme
  which they called "extermination through work".  So they

. P-23

  used hard labour as a tool, as a means to kill prisoners.
  This was the practice before.  Now, at October '43, it is
  not really surprising they are a bit cautious here and
  they are trying to improve as far as they can, trying to
  improve in some sense the general conditions of the
  prisoners.  But, of course, this is a document, I mean,
  this document is, of course, sent to the head of the
  concentration camps -- nothing to do with the
  extermination camps, for instance.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I was going to ask you about that.
A.  Yes.  So, as far as Auschwitz is concerned, it concerns
  the slave labours within the camp.  It does not say
  anything about the people who were deported to the camp
  and selected in front of the camp.
If one, you know, if I have to -- if I were in
  the position to give you a kind of expert's opinion on the
  condition in the concentration camps at the end of 1943,
  I would not completely rely on this document.  It would be
  completely unprofessional to rely on this one document.
  One has to look, of course, at all kind of circumstances.
  One has to look at the death rates.  They had statistics
  on the death rates and I had to look at those, and so on.
  You know, the problem with this kind of document is that
  if you have not seen the file, in the file in the next bit
  you could find a document which says, "Well, I recall my
  order from last week".  If you do not have the context, it

. P-24

  is difficult to make, you know, a general statement as an
  historian about the condition in this camp, and whether
  they really, you know, in the way gave up this idea of
  extermination through work in the end of 1943 and how far
  they still carried on with this policy.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just ask you one question?  You refer
  to the death rates and they were being reported, for
  example, from Auschwitz on a regular basis?
A.  Yes.
Q.  Death rates of those in the camps?
A.  Yes.
Q.  The inmates in the camps?
A.  Yes, exactly.
Q.  Do you recall, in general, whether the death rate reduced
  around October 1943?
A.  I cannot -- I think I should not speculate.
Q.  No.
A.  I do not have the statistics here and I cannot answer.
MR IRVING:  You do actually because they are just in one of the
  other documents in the bundle, my Lord.  We are coming to
  the death rates in a minute.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are we?  Good.
MR IRVING:  Yes.  Can I ask, if you have finished with your
  replies, Dr Longerich, now to look at the loose page
  No. 15?  This is from the same kind of source, is it not,
  the administration of the concentration camp system, dated

. P-25

  December 28th 1942, and this is a letter addressed to the
  camp doctors of the concentration camps.  Let me tell you
  where this comes from.  It comes from a book called "Macht
  Ohne Moral".  It is, obviously, not a wartime transcript.
  It has been transcribed, presumably, from a microfilm or
A.  Yes, it is, I think somebody ----
Q.  Typed a copy?
A.  --- typed a copy, yes.
Q.  But it is a letter written to the camp doctors of the
  concentration camps, including Auschwitz.  That is the
  fifth one.  Ravensbruck, Flosenburg and Nattsweileicken
  and I can see there Mauthausen at the end.  It is saying
  to them in the second sentence, is it not, well, it begins
  by saying, "I am attaching", which is not attached here,
"a list of the current editions and departures in all the
  concentration camps for your attention.  From the latter,,
  you can see that of 156,000 arrivals, around 70,000 have
  died".  He goes on to say:  "This is completely
  unacceptable and the camp doctors have to stop their rough
  and ready measures and they have to start making sure the
  prisoners survive".  What would you make of that kind of
  document?  Are there any other passages you want to read
  from that document or translate?
A.  Well, it says here that one can read from the statistics
  that from 156 prisoners who came into the camp, 70,000

. P-26

  died, and with this kind of high death rates, one is not
  able to keep the number of prisoners on the same level.
  I think this is the main concern, to keep, because the
  people died in the concentration camps, it is not possible
  to keep, you know, to keep this number of prisoners in the
  camp.  This is nothing to do, of course, with
  extermination and gas chambers in Auschwitz.  It is what
  happens in the camp.
MR RAMPTON:  Can I, perhaps, interrupt and ask Dr Longerich,
  not Mr Irving, Dr Longerich, to translate the rest of that
  paragraph when he has read it?
A.  Yes.  "The concentration, the camp doctors have to make
  sure with all means at their disposal that the death rate
  in the single camps has to decline, not the one is the
  better doctor in the concentration camp who believes that
  through unresponsible, that he has to", well ----
MR IRVING:  "Inappropriate callousness"?
A.  "Inappropriate".
Q.  "Harshness" or "hardness"?
A.  "Harshness to, he has to..."
MR RAMPTON:  Maybe the lady translator can do it.
THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  "Not he is the better physician or
  doctor in a concentration camp who believes that through
  inappropriate, that he has to stand out through
  inappropriate hardness, but he who achieves, he who
  maintains the ability to work in the various workplaces

. P-27

  through supervision and exchange on a level as high as
A.  Yes, and I think "exchange" is here the key word, so what
  they are trying to achieve is they are trying to keep a
  certain number of prisoners to use them as slave labours
  to work them to death, but, of course, unfortunately, they
  have too many people died in a too short time, so they
  have to make sure they got supply from outside.  This is,
  I think it is quite, the reference is here, "exchange of
  prisoners", yes?  It is not the duty of the doctors to,
  you know, keep the people, to keep the prisoners on life -- 
  alive, sorry, alive, so I think this is ----
MR IRVING:  Is this document declaring war on the callousness
  of the camp doctors?
A.  I do not think they would be -- just reminded them, the
  document reminded them to perform their duties as
  concentration camp doctors, and it is quite clearly what
  their duties are.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What, to keep them alive?
A.  Well, to maintain that always, you know, there is the same
  number of prisoners in the camp, yes?  So to make sure
  that the effectiveness of a worker is, the effectiveness
  of the workforce is as high as possible by supervision and
  exchange of individual workers.  So his responsibility is
  to care for the entire camp population, but not for the
  single worker.  He has to make sure that the individual

. P-28

  workers are exchanges so that the number of workers in the
  camp is a kind of ----
Q.  Well, that has nothing do with the doctors, has it, really?
A.  Well, of course, the doctor has to -- this is the prime
  responsibility of the doctor.
Q.  No, I mean the exchange is not really the doctor's
A.  No, but he is part of this process.
MR IRVING:  Can I now, if Mr Rampton does not mind, translate
  the next sentence which is:  "Camp doctors have more than
  hitherto to supervise the nourishment of the prisoners and
  to make suggestions for improvement in accordance, in
  conformity, with the administration of the camp
  commandants".  Then further down that paragraph, does it
  not say, "The Reichsfuhrer SS", that is Heinreich Himmler,
"has ordered that the mortality rates are without
  question to be held down.  They have got to be reduced".
So that is the overall tenor of this letter.
  The camp doctors are not doing their job properly.  They
  have got to pay attention to the feeding and the health of
  the prisoners.  Himmler is getting angry because they are
  losing so much of their valuable slave labour through whatever.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where do you get Himmler from?
MR IRVING:  The Reichsfuhrer SS.  It is the last sentence but

. P-29

  one, my Lord.  The Reichsfuhrer SS es hat befuhlen.
A.  The bottom line for me is "The programme to exterminate
  prisoners for work is going too fast.  We have to make
  sure that we do not kill too many in a short timeframe.
  I think this is the context of the document".

[End material which was duplicated, exactly, above]

Q.  Dr Longerich, it does not actually say that in the
  document, does it?  That is the spin you have put on it.
A.  No, but again, you know, if you ask me as an expert and
  you just put one document in front of me, I have to say
  that you have to see it in the context of the history of
  the concentration camps, and it is not the prime
  responsibility -- this was not the prime responsibility of
  concentration camps doctors to look for the health and
  welfare of the prisoners.  One has to say that, and you
  cannot ----
Q.  To your knowledge, was there a large camp hospital in Auschwitz?
A.  I would not call it a hospital.  It was a kamp
  baracken. So this is a place where sick prisoners, sick
  prisoners, were forced to go to the kamp baracken and, of
  course, there the main purpose of this so-called hospital
  was, of course, to select the prisoners not fit for work
  and to send them into the gas chambers.  So the whole
  notion of a hospital, I think, is rather bizarre, as far
  as prisoners are concerned.
I have to say I am not really an expert for

. P-30

  Auschwitz.  We had an expert here and I think I cannot do
  it ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think his answer was more or less the same
  as yours.
A.  Yes, I cannot actually -- I do not have more expertise,
  definitely not more expertise than he.
MR IRVING:  I am not going to ask you questions about
  Auschwitz.  This is about the entire concentration camp
  system or the extermination system, as you would describe
  it.  Obviously, I do not want to flood the court with
  documents of this nature, but had you seen documents - ---
MR RAMPTON:  No, I am sorry.  I do not believe that is what the
  witness has said.  What the witness has said is that this
  concerns, to use Mr Irving's phrase, slave labour in the
  concentration camps which includes a whole lot of camps in
  Germany which have nothing to do with extermination.  The
  witness has specifically said that these documents have
  nothing whatever to do with the extermination programme
  which took place at Birkenhau which is not mentioned in
  any of these documents or in the Reinhardt ----
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is, undoubtedly, what the witness has
  been saying, none of this touches on the ones who were not
  selected for ----
MR IRVING:  My Lord, it is remarkable the way the Defence
  sometimes says that Auschwitz covers both camps and
  sometimes they say it does not.  That is all I would say

. P-31

  there.  Can we now look at the third document, please,
  which is the only other one I am going to trouble the
  court with on this particular matter, document No. 16,
  which is a four page document with tables dated September
  30th 1943 from the same kind of man, is it not?  It is
  signed actually by Pohl himself, chief of the camp system,
  and here he actually attaches statistics, does he not, for
  deaths just in one month, August, 1943?  The third page is
  a table of death in August 1943.
A.  Do I have chance to read the document?  Give me, please,
  five minutes.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Take your time.
A.  Yes.
MR IRVING:  First of all, the covering letter is a bit
  triumphant, is it not?  It says:  "In consequence of the
  hygienic measures we have introduced, and the better
  feeding, the better clothing, the death rate has gone down
  in the camps".
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us just see, would you mind, would the
  translator very kindly translate the first paragraph just
  so we get the order of the mortality?
THE INTERPRETER:  The first paragraph?
Q.  Would you mind?
THE INTERPRETER:  "Since during the month of December 1942
  mortality was still at -- whereas, in the month of
  December 1942 the mortality was still at around 10 per

. P-32

  cent, it already was reduced in the month of January 1943
  to 8 per cent, and proceeded to go down further.  This is
  mainly -- this reduction of the mortality is mainly
  attributed to the fact that the hygienic measures which
  had been asked for for sometime have now at least been
  implemented to a large extent.  Moreover, in regarding the
  feeding, the nourishment, it was ordered that a third of
  the food should be added to, should be added just before
  the distribution of the meal in its raw state, to
  supplement the cooked food.  It was avoided to kill the
  food by cooking it.  In addition, sauerkrauts and similar
  food was distributed.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, I think that will do.  So they were 10
  per cent mortality.
MR IRVING:  Horrendous mortality rates when you look at the
  figures, my Lord.  That is 10 per cent per month.
MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They are now very pleased with themselves
  because they have got the death rate in Auschwitz down to
  48,000 men in one month?
MR IRVING:  No, it is not.  That is the actual number.  The
  first column is the number on hand, my Lord.  The second
  column is the deaths that month, 1442.
A.  I mean, you said this has a kind of triumphant, this
  letter has a kind of triumphant attitude, and the triumph
  here is that the death rate, the monthly date rate, is
  reduced from 10 per cent in December to 8 per cent in

. P-33

  January.  So this is the success of these measures.  So 8
  per cent, eight people of 100 would die each month in the
  slave labour camps, nothing to do, of course, with the
  extermination, extermination.
Q.  This is what you say, is it not, but we are just looking
  at figures in Auschwitz ----
A.  It is absolutely ----

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