Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day025.01 Last-Modified: 2000/07/25 IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE1996 I. No. 113 QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION Royal Courts of Justice Strand, London Thursday, 24th February 2000 Before: MR JUSTICE GRAY B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING Claimant -and- (1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED (2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT Defendants The Claimant appeared in person MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q. C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and Second Defendants MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt (Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell & Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4 Telephone: 020-7242-9346) (This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell & Company) PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-FIVE . P-1 (Day 25. 10.00 a.m.) (DR LONGERICH, recalled. Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.) MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving? MR IRVING: May it please the court. My Lord, you requested yesterday that I should state my position on the Einsatzgruppen and I place before your Lordship a two-page summary of my position. I do not know whether your Lordship wishes to address it now? I gave a copy to Mr Rampton. If Mr Rampton wishes to address it now, it now because it just could affect some of the cross-examination later today. (Pause for reading) I am bound to say that I think that differs very, very substantially from the position that you seem to have adopted in your cross-examination by Mr Rampton. MR IRVING: Does it? In which respect? MR JUSTICE GRAY: It seems to me that this is a rather partial acknowledgment of Hitler's knowledge and therefore responsibility for what went on in the Eastern territories. MR IRVING: Of course I did not mention the October 1943 watershed, that is true. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do not worry about that because you accepted . P-2 everything, as it were, after that. Mr Rampton? MR RAMPTON: I regard it as a fairly enormous step backwards. However, it does not trouble me in the very slightest, I have to say, because by a combination of the actual evidence of what was happening at the time and what Mr Irving said when first confronted with it, I am quite happy to leave that matter to be made by way of submission at the end of the case. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is right and it seemed to me that, when you were saying you might have to recall Browning and so on, I do not think that is right. MR RAMPTON: No, it was off the cuff and it was not meant interrorem, but it was a thought that occurred to me. I think actually, having regard to this, that this is so inconsistent, in my submission, with what was first said in cross-examination, that I am happy to leave it like that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is a matter for comment later on. Mr Irving, that must be right. To the extent that there is a difference between the position you took in cross-examination and this document, then Mr Rampton obviously must be entitled to make whatever comment he thinks fit. MR IRVING: Or indeed to cross-examine me further on that document. MR JUSTICE GRAY: He may want to do that, I do not know. . P-3 Probably not I guess. Anyway, I have that now. Again I think it is sensible to try to work out where it should go. I think probably it goes in -- this is really for the transcript so that everybody knows where it is -- MR IRVING: L, was it not? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I was thinking more, because in a way it is statement of your case, I wonder whether it belongs in C or, indeed, in the pleadings. I think that is right. I will tuck it behind your defence in bundle A. MR IRVING: Very well, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Thank you very much for doing that anyway. When I say "defence", I mean, of course, reply, tab 4. Yes. Is there anything else before you resume? MR IRVING: No, I can begin cross-examination. (Dr Peter Longerich, Recalled Cross-examination by Mr Irving, continued.) Q. Dr Longerich, good morning. A. Good morning. Q. We touched yesterday briefly on the existence in the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte of manuscripts written by Karl Wolff. You said that it was of a confidential nature and that it was not open for general research. I stated that in my discovery there had been extracts or a transcript of part of that. Can I ask you to look at the little bundle I just gave you? My Lord, this is on page 14 of the little bundle which is in sections. . P-4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is this a manuscript? Manuscript, Karl Wolff, I see. MR IRVING: Yes. If you go to page 16, which is the last page in that little clip, you will see a handwritten version of it. That is the original German. Page 14 is the original German transcript. A. May I ask, is this your transcript? Q. Yes, that is my handwriting. A. So I have to rely on Mr Irving's summary? Q. Yes, extracts. A. I have to say I am not happy with that because, as we experienced yesterday, Mr Irving tends to shorten documents and I do not agree with him on the principles in the way he shortens documents. I am not very happy to comment on his transcripts or excerpts from documents. I would like to see the original. Q. If you look at line 6, you will see that I have put three dots, and line 7 I have three dots. A. Yes, but I have not seen the original, so I cannot --- - Q. You stated, of course, that you were not permitted to see the original because it was a confidential document. A. Yes. Still I would like to see the original. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I know what the problem is. Where is the original, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: It is in the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte in Munich. MR JUSTICE GRAY: To which Mr Irving does not have access. . P-5 I take your point entirely, Dr Longerich, but shall we just see what the question is and see whether you can cope. If you do not feel you can ---- MR IRVING: My position would be of course, my Lord, that this was the document that was before me when I was writing my book, this handwritten extract. A. But you were allowed to make photocopies from the document. I would really prefer to see a photocopy instead of your handwritten notes on the document. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Do you have a photocopy, Mr Irving? MR IRVING: No, my Lord. I was not allowed to make photocopies on this particular one. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Proceed fairly cautiously. What is the point? MR IRVING: If you will now look at the translation, which is on page 10, this is an explanation, is it not? It is an extract, first of all, from a confidential manuscript by Karl Wolff dated May 11th 1952, and he is referring to the effect on Himmler of the assassination of Heydrich. In the second paragraph Wolff expresses the rather extraordinary view that perhaps 70 men all told from Himmler to Hoess were involved in the extermination of the Jews. Then there is something which I put in quotation marks. The inference is that it is actually words from the document: "Bormann and Himmler probably represented the view that the Jewish problem had to be dealt with . P-6 without Hitler getting his fingers dirty on it." Then the next paragraph says: "After the mass epidemic at Auschwitz, the idea of deliberate mass deaths probably occurred. Himmler was in his way bizarre and religious and held to the view that for the greatest war Lord and the greatest war of all times he had take upon himself tasks which had to be solved to put Hitler's ideas into effect without engaging him", that is Hitler personally ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am going to interrupt you now. This is, it seems to me, of fairly central potential importance. MR IRVING: In two ways, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not know what it was going to say. It is wholly unsatisfactory, is it not, to have your manuscript rendition, if that is the right word, of parts of this document? Is there an insuperable problem about getting hold of a photocopy of it? MR IRVING: I will ask the Institute if they will provide me with a photocopy. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Or even the Defendants might get a more helpful reaction to a request for a photocopy of this document. MR RAMPTON: We might, but I have to say this is a note of something that Karl Wolff, a high ranking SS officer close to Himmler and Hitler, said in 1952. . P-7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It is potentially self-exculpatory, I can see that. MR RAMPTON: That is a comment that I would make about it. The reason I say that now is that I do not know that I believe that it is worth, frankly, our time and trouble going to get the original from Munich. A. Can I make a comment here, or a question? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, please do. A. This is your interview with Karl Wolff? MR IRVING: Good Lord, no. A. You referred yesterday to a confidential manuscript by Karl Wolff. This is not a part of the confidential manuscript. This is part of the collection of testimonies collected by the Institute in the 1950s. You can recognize it by these reference numbers shown in German. It is an open class. I think, if you phone the Institute, you can get a photocopy within three hours or so. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I would have thought. A. It is open class. There is no need to rely on handwritten excerpts, anything of this kind. Q. You see, I am a bit unhappy, I will be frank, Mr Irving, that there are dots immediately before and immediately after the passage that you rely on. MR IRVING: Yes. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that is satisfactory and I think the witness is entitled to take the position, . P-8 "I am not prepared to comment unless I have the entire document in front of me". Whether it has any weight or not is another matter. MR IRVING: The only weight that it might possibly have is of course that I relied heavily on my extracts from the Wolff manuscript in writing my books. A. This is not the Wolff manuscript. MR IRVING: Your Lordship will recognise passages from this manuscript as they are represented and summarized in the Hitler's War. MR JUSTICE GRAY: My response to that is whether an objective historian could and should have placed weight on this document must depend on the whole terms of it, not just on selective extracts. MR IRVING: Of course I saw the whole document when I sat there making the extracts. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Of course you did, but I think we need to see the whole document to see whether you should have attached the weight you say you did attach to it. MR IRVING: I will try to obtain it, but of course I cannot obtain it today. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am wondering whether, if it really is a matter of three hours, and I do not see why it should not be, as Dr Longerich says, somebody could not perhaps even go and place a telephone call now. MR RAMPTON: The best person to do that is the gentleman in the . P-9 witness box. I may be speaking out of turn but I think he is the one that carries the clout so far as the Institute in Munich is concerned. It may be that one of my German researchers would be able to do it and see if we can get it before close of play today. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is what I was hoping. I will leave it to you. I think I am going to ask you to leave this document and come back to it. We will come back to it anyway but come back to it if we get the proper document. MR RAMPTON: I am told that they do not feel they can do it. Could I have permission to speak to Dr Longerich about it at the adjournment? Maybe he can make a telephone call at lunch time. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, if it really cannot be done before then. MR RAMPTON: I am told, I do not know reasons are, that it would be difficult for anybody but him to do it. Perhaps I could be a little unorthodox and ask him now? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, why not? Do you mind, Mr Irving? It is a bit unorthodox. MR RAMPTON: Could you make a telephone call at lunch time? A. If you give me a phone. MR RAMPTON: We will give you a phone. A. Yes, sir. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. A. (After a pause) Sorry, is this a break? MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, it is not. Mr Irving, carry on. . P-10 MR IRVING: While you still have that bundle in front of you -- my Lord, this is just by way of putting documents in - - page 1 is a German document which is a conference dated August 6th 1942, on the face of it. Right? It is from an American microfilm T 501 which is the records of the military government, the generalgouvernenent. Is it a record of the conference of 6th August 1942, Dr Longerich? A. Again, I have to say I got this document five minutes ago and I should really have the time to read it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us read it together. I am sure we will be able to manage. MR IRVING: My Lord, I am just really going to pay attention to the title of the document and in the most general terms. Is this a document relating to increasing air raid precaution measurements in the government general? A. The translation is guidelines for the building up of air raid defence in the area of the command of the military force in the generalgouvernement. That is the title. Q. The remaining four pages just give guidelines for how to do this, to build air raid shelters because of the increased danger of British air attacks? A. It does not say British air attacks. I think it could also refer to Soviet or American attacks but I just trust you that this is the case. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Just so that I understand the relevance, this is back to Auschwitz? . P-11 MR IRVING: Back to Auschwitz, my Lord, yes, crematorium No. (ii). The next document I want you to look at briefly is on page 5. First of all, I draw your attention to the SS runes on the first line under be Abschrift. Do you have page 5? A. Yes. Q. You see the SS runes after Reichsfuhrer SS? A. Yes. Q. So this is probably a genuine wartime document? I have to put it like that. A. Probably. Q. Are you familiar with this document, signed by the chief of the concentration camp system, Pohl? A. I cannot recall the document. I am really curious to know from which archive the document is. I also have to say I did not have the time to read the document. So would you say where this document is from, from which archive you have that? Q. It has been provided to me by a lawyer in Dusseldorf who is heavily involved in wartime cases. A. So you cannot say from which archive. Q. I will obtain it for the court. A. It is difficult for me to comment on the document if I do not know where the original is. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I see that. Was this in your discovery, Mr Irving? . P-12 MR IRVING: My Lord, no it was not. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I thought not. It is typical of last minute documents being provided to me by lawyers around the world and they know these things. If your Lordship has any objection, then I would not take it further.
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