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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day024.17

Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day024.17
Last-Modified: 2000/07/24

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Where is this in the report, or is it not?

.          P-147

   MR IRVING:  Page 57, paragraph 15.7.
   A.   I am not sure at the moment whether in the entire text the
        name Jew is not mentioned, but I think for me the central
        passage here is this expression of Hitler.
   MR IRVING:  Anybody who looks askance?
   A.   How would you translate it?
   Q.   Anybody who looks askance can be shot.
   A.   Yes. I think this is a category which also would include
        Jews, without particularly referring to them.
   Q.   Yes. You do agree that "der nur schief schaut" does not
        actually refer to somebody looking odd?  It is actually
        somebody who is looking out of the corner of his eyes at
        you, or something like that?  Anybody suspect?
   A.   Anybody suspect, yes.
   Q.   You summarize in paragraph 15.8, rather dangerously and
        adventurously in my view:  "With the beginning of the
        massive murder of the Soviet civilian population in the
        summer of 1941, a stage was reached in which these
        statements and similar ones by Hitler could no longer be
        understood as general threats of violence"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So we are looking really between the lines, are we there?
        Again, we have nothing specific to point to.
   A.   I think, if you look back and look at Hitler's orders and
        his speeches in March 1941, and the fact that he demanded
        the annihilation or the extermination of the Jewish

.          P-148

        Bolshevik complex, if you look at the intelligentsia - - of
        course this involved the killing of at least 10,000,
        probably 100,000, people.  Then I think one has to take
        this into account if one looks at the way Hitler actually
        used this terminology after these events.  I do not know
        whether we have actually reached here the stage where
        I refer to the Einsatzgruppen and their reports back, and
        the fact that these reports were widely circulated, we
        have evidence that Hitler actually has seen them ----.
   Q.   I would be interested.  Do you know off the top of your
        head or from your memory what is the evidence that Hitler
        actually read the Einsatzgruppen reports?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let us find it in the report.
   A.   I should be cautious here.  We have this document from the
        1st August 1941.
   MR IRVING:  Muller document?
   A.   The Muller document, which I erroneously dated 2nd August,
        41, in this report.  I cannot find it for the moment.
   Q.   That document does not show he was shown any?
   A.   No, you are right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Take this a little bit more slowly.  Lets
        find your reference to the Muller document.  Is that in
        your second report?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   A.   Yes.
   MS ROGERS:  Page 26 of 2.

.          P-149

   A.   You are right, one should be cautious.  Is it 26?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you sure it is page 26.
   MR IRVING:  It is in the bundle of documents.
   A.   I have it in the report 1, page 57, in the middle of 15.6.
   MR IRVING:  Page 50 of the bundle.
   A.   I use the wrong date.  It is definitely the 1st August.
        It says here:  "Dem Fuhrer soll von hier aus lfd Berichte
        unber die Arbeit der Einsatzgruppen im Osten vorgelegt
        weren".  In English, the Fuhrer should be presented with
        continuous reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in
        the East from here.  So it is an intention, yes.  But we
        have also other evidence that were not only the
        Eichnesmeldung, which were done on a daily basis, but
        there were also monthly and bimonthly reports about the
        activities of the Einsatzgruppen.  We know that these
        reports were widely circulated.  They had a distribution
        list with more than a hundred names or institutions on
        it.  These monthly reports were widely circulated among
        the different ministries.  For example, in the Foreign
        Ministry one of the monthly reports was shown to 22
        people.  It is difficult, I think impossible, to argue
        that the result of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen
        could be hidden before anybody, because it was literally,
        I think hundreds of people actually in the official
        capacity have seen these reports.  So I think that this is
        enough evidence to say that the intention that Hitler

.          P-150

        should see this, that this actually was carried out,
        because it could not be, it was impossible to hide it
        before.  On the contrary, it is exactly what he himself
        demanded in these orders.  It is about the destruction of
        the Bolshevik Judao empire.  That is what he wanted to
        hear and that is why they presented him I think with these reports.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You say he ordered it and it happened?
   A.   Yes.
   MR IRVING:  Now I have to ask supplementary questions on that
        of course.  You say that these Einsatzgruppen reports had
        lengthy distribution lists.  You mentioned 22 names on
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Was the adjutants officer, the Fuhrer, one of them?
   A.   I did not say that 22, the Einsatzgruppen reports, we do
        not have complete distribution lists for every report and
        they vary from report to report.  So I do not know.
   Q.   Well let me ask in general terms.  On any of the
        distribution lists was there any of Adolf Hitler's
   A.   We do not have a complete set of distribution lists.
   Q.   Yes. On even one report then?
   A.   I have to look to the reports.  I cannot say this.
        I found in report No. 128 the Party Chancellery, for
        instance, involved.  If you want to argue that these

.          P-151

        operations of the Einsatzgruppen were hidden before Hitler ----
   Q.   Hidden from?
   A.   From Hitler, sorry, then you must argue that Bormann was
        part of this conspiracy because he received a copy, and he
        would not be alarmed and go to Hitler.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am sorry.  I do not interrupt in the middle of
        an answer -- at least I try not to.  Again, I am a bit
        troubled by all of this.  I had the transcript reference
        some days ago, weeks ago, I have not got it at the
        moment.  My recollection is that Mr Irving accepted in
        cross-examination, first that there was systematic mass
        shootings in the East by the Einsatzgruppen and, secondly,
        that they were approved by Hitler.  So where are we going
        I ask myself?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just check that because that thought
        had gone through my mind?  I was hesitant about it.
   MR RAMPTON:  It was early on in the case, almost probably the first week.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think I will be able to tell you.
   MR IRVING:  I think the answer to that is that there are
        killings and there are killings.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure that is the way it has been put.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am not going to swear to it, but I think my
        recollection is more or less right.

.          P-152

   MR IRVING:  I am going to come back to this question.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am trying to prevent Mr Irving coming back to
        these questions, because I think it is a waste of the
        court's time and my client's money, and this witness's time too.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure, doing the best I can from my
        own notes, that the latter part of what you have just said
        is right.  But, if anybody can check on the transcript, it
        is quite an important point.  I do not think if I may
        respectfully say, so on your say so I can stop this line
        of cross-examination.  If you can pick up a reference?
   MR RAMPTON:  No, of course not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Your position now, Mr Irving, and I do not
        suggest it was different before, is that, yes, there were
        these mass shootings going on and there were documents
        floating around reporting them, but you do not accept that
        the reports ever got back to Hitler?
   MR RAMPTON:  What I am quite certain about, my Lord ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I have an answer first?  Is that right?
   MR IRVING:  That is correct, my Lord.  That is the position.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Although the one we do have for December 42
        says "vorgelegt", you still do not accept that Hitler saw
        it?  That is what jogs my memory that I do not think it
        has ever been----
   MR IRVING:  December 29th, 1942 yes, but that is something
        different which we will come to in due course.

.          P-153

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It is the same thing.  It is a report of
        shootings by the Einsatzgruppen.
   MR IRVING:  My Lord, if you feel I am wasting this witness's
        time, I do hope that your Lordship will tell me.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What Mr Rampton is anxious about is that you
        should not waste time by cross-examining on a point which
        you have already conceded.
   MR IRVING:  I am very unlikely to do that, my Lord.  It is my time also.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not agree with that.  Certainly it was
        conceded that report No. 51 of 29th December was probably
        seen by Hitler.  That is out of the way.  That has gone.
        That is 363,000 plus Jewish deaths by shooting.
   MR IRVING: I beg your pardon?  That was conceded?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think that was conceded.  We must
        get the references.
   MR RAMPTON:  It was conceded that Hitler probably saw it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.  That is not my recollection.
   MR RAMPTON:  I will have to check this and I have to do it
        quickly because otherwise we are going to be here----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Interrupt, if you would, again when you have
        the reference, but I think it is the sort of thing that we
        must have a reference on.  Carry on, if you would,
        Mr Irving, unless and until you are interrupted.
   MR IRVING:  Very briefly, from your knowledge, if you had seen
        an Einsatzgruppen report which had indicated in the

.          P-154

        distribution list that it had been shown to Hitler or to
        Hitler's staff, or to his Adjutants, then you would have
        mentioned it, would you not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Can you just say geographically where was the Party
        chancellery situated?
   A.   The Party Chancellery, the main office, was in Munich, but
        they had of course a liaison office in Berlin, or wherever
        Hitler was.  Bormann was, after he became secretary of the
        Fuhrer, almost constantly a member of Hitler's personal
        entourage.  He also made sure that the Party Chancellery
        was always represented in Hitler's entourage if he was not
        able to be present there.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You have seen documents where Bormann is on
        the distribution list for these anmeldung?
   A.   I have found one.  These distribution lists are not
        complete.  In 128 it says among 55 copies there is one
        copy going to the Party Chancellery.
   Q.   Would that have been the Munich office?
   A.   I think it only said Party Chancellery, and it says Party
        Chancellery in the main well ....
   Q.   Let me ask another specific follow up.  On all the copies
        that you have seen, are there any handwritten annotations
        like "has been submitted to the Fuhrer" or anything like that?
   A.   As far as I have seen, no, there is nothing like that.

.          P-155

   Q.   No.  Again if you had noticed that, you would have brought
        it to our attention?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It is not impossible they were shown to Hitler, but we
        have no evidence, is that right?
   A.   I would phrase it much stronger.  I would think it is
        inconceivable that Hitler was not informed about these
        reports because they were so widely circulated, and there
        was a specific order on 1st August actually that materials
        should be shown to him.
   Q.   What period are you talking about now?  Before December
        1941 or after December 1941?
   A.   We are talking about what?
   Q.   The Einsatzgruppen reports where you say it is
        inconceivable that he was not shown them?
   A.   The reports started in June and ended in March '42, and
        I think this would apply to the whole period because this
        letter actually from Muller which says it should be shown
        to him is from the early stages, from 1st August 1941.
   Q.   The fact that the letter from Muller says that the Fuhrer
        wants to be shown them does not necessarily mean to say
        that it was acted upon?
   A.   Well, I assume that this was acted upon because, in
        general, orders by Muller were carried out as a very
        efficient head of the secret police.  I think ----
   Q.   One example is that I requested that I should be shown

.          P-156

        proof of where this document is and that has not been
        acted upon either?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving, I think we have gone through this
        enough.  I hear what the witness says.  He says it is
        inconceivable that Hitler would not have known.

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