Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day020.12 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 MR IRVING: That is the context, my Lord, and I think that that substantially softens what might be taken to be the sting of that passage left, as it is, in that rather bald and . P-103 exposed position in the paragraph as quoted in the expert report. I am being asked by a Jewish Professor for my take on the present situation and I am telling him in this semi-academic atmosphere the worries that I would have if I were Jewish. A. Well, to my mind, it does not actually soften it at all. There is no indication here that it is a Jewish Professor, incidentally. What he says is, he quotes you, saying that, if you were a Jew, you would want to see am answer to the vital question why are the Jews so hated within only a few years of their arrival in each host country. I think I have done you a favour by leaving that out. Q. On page 170, this is a sentence beginning with the word "fundamentally". Here you have allowed yourself to say, "Fundamentally, however, as Irving conceded", there is that word again "conceded", "he was in basic agreement with Goebbels in his belief that 'they had it coming to them'". Who do you mean by "they"? A. The Jews. Q. The Jews. So you are saying once again that I am applauding the Holocaust effectively? A. I do not think I use the word "applaud". There again, let me just read the surrounding context which you are so keen on reading out in your own statements, so I hope I am allowed to do the same with mine. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. . P-104 A. In 1996 you recount the view of the publisher who eventually refused to publish the American edition of your book on Goebbels and you said: Maybe ... the chairman of St Martin's Press was right when he said: 'This book suggests they (the Jews) had it coming to them'. But if he is right, let me say in advance in my self-defence, it is not David Irving who says that, it is David Irving reporting Dr Goebbels who says that. Maybe I did not make it plain enough, or maybe I did not put enough distance between myself and Dr Goebbels or maybe I did not put in all the counter-arguments I should have done to be politically correct". "Fundamentally, however, as Irving conceded", I go on, "he was in basic agreement with Goebbels in his belief that 'they had it coming to them'." "For, Irving told an audience in Tampa, Florida, on 6th October 1995:", and then I have a very lengthy quote which I think has already been referred to in the trial, so I will not read it out. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it has. The short answer is that the Jews did have it coming to them, but there is a longer answer. I think that is a fair summary. MR IRVING: My Lord, what he has left out from this quotation of course -- we have not actually looked at it in detail. MR JUSTICE GRAY: We have looked at the Tampa, Florida one in detail. MR IRVING: The reference is to this violent demonstration that . P-105 began in one of my speeches in Freeport in Louisiana? Have we had that? The fact that the local community came along and violently disrupted a lecture that I was speaking at, and that that is what has been left out of the middle of this speech, in the middle of this anecdote? I am sure that we have not had that, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sorry, I have lost you temporarily. You are talking about Louisiana but this is Florida. A. There is an ellipse in the indented quotation. MR IRVING: There are four ellipses on that page, each of which was serious material and should not have been left out because it explains the remarks that follow. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we deal with that as a matter of submission? We have been through this speech in considerable detail already. I have it reasonably well in mind and I do not think it is going to be sensible to spend ten minutes filling in the ellipses. A. I have looked at this speech again, my Lord, and the only passage that I considered should be reinstated is listed in my letter of 10th January 2000 with amendments to the report. So there is a short passage there. But otherwise I come back to the fact that this is a very long quotation already, and I think it gives a correct impression of your views. MR IRVING: In that case, let us spend the remaining few minutes before the adjournment examining precisely what . P-106 you consider my views to be, unless his Lordship disagrees. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. MR IRVING: "Irving conceded that he was in basic agreement with Goebbels in his belief that the Jews had it coming to them". That is, of course, a repugnant statement and you are prepared now to defend that, are you, Professor? A. Yes. Q. So you are saying that Irving said that the Jews deserved the Holocaust? A. That is right. That is to say, of course, on your interpretation of the Holocaust. Q. They deserved the gas chambers, the barbed wire, the millions of deaths, that they had it coming to them, and that this my own personal view? This is your view as an expert witness in this case? A. Well, I would not say the gas chambers, since you denied that in 1996 when you made this statement, but for the rest. Q. Ignoring the cheap laughs. A. I am sorry, I have to make that point. Q. This is a repugnant allegation for you to make and you should not be playing to the gallery with cheap laughs. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think Professor Evans is playing to the gallery. I really do not. MR IRVING: If he says I do not mean the gas chambers because . P-107 of course---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is making the serious point that, when you, as he argues, say that the Jews had it coming to them, you cannot have been meaning that they had the gas chambers coming to them, because at that stage you were saying that there were not any gas chambers. That is the point. It is a serious point. MR IRVING: My Lord, this is characteristic of this witness's methods, that, when he come up against an awkward question, he attempts to push this particular express train on to a siding, and I am not going down the gas chamber siding, I am not going down that particular road. I am going to nail this witness down on his submission to this court that I applaud the Holocaust, which is what that sentence boils down to. MR JUSTICE GRAY: No. That is not quite what he is saying. What he is saying is that you had whatever you meant by the Holocaust, that the Jews had whatever you meant by the Holocaust coming to them. That is what he is saying you said. MR IRVING: With respect my Lord, is that not precisely what I just said? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Carry on with your questions and we will see where you get. MR IRVING: "Irving said that he agreed with Goebbels that they had it coming to them". . P-108 A. Yes. Q. Do you not see the distinction between an author writing in a book saying Goebbels said that the Jews had it coming to them and he believed they had it coming to them, and the author himself believing the Jews had it coming to them? A. I just quoted a lengthy passage where you try and wriggle out of the suggestion made by the chairman of St Martin's Press that the book suggests that the Jews had it coming to them. The man who was going to publish your book and had read it took that message from the book and you say that maybe you did not make it plain enough, did not put enough distance between yourself and Goebbels. I then go on to quote your speech in Tampa, Florida on 6th October 1995, where you say precisely the same thing. MR RAMPTON: Perhaps one could turn over the page for completeness because this theme is completed in paragraph 56, and I do resist a lack of context. A. In 1991 you said "they (and you mean the Jews) dragged us into two world wars and now, for equally mysterious reasons, they are trying to drag us into the Balkans". MR IRVING: Can we narrow down---- A. There is another lengthy quote there, why does it always happen to the Jews, you ask. Q. Can we therefore narrow down what your allegation against the author of this book is? Are you alleging that he . P-109 applauded what happened to the Jews? A. What I am saying here is ---- Q. It should be easy to answer. Does he applaud it or does he not, in your view? A. Let us read the text of my report, Mr Irving. Q. Can you just answer a simple question? A. "Fundamentally, however, as Irving conceded, he was in basic agreement with Goebbels in his belief that 'they had it coming to them'". Q. Will you now answer my question? A. That is what I am saying. Q. Will you answer my question? A. The word "applause" and "applauded" does not occur there. Q. Just so that everybody in this courtroom can be plain what you are suggesting, are you suggesting that I, David Irving, applauded what happened to the Jews or not? A. I am saying that you are saying that they deserved what they got. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That answer has been given now three or four times, Mr Irving. MR IRVING: There is a certain amount of wriggling going on here. MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you say you never said anything of the kind, put that to the witness. MR IRVING: If what? MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you say you never said that the Jews had . P-110 it coming to them, or they deserved what happened to them, put that to the witness. MR IRVING: I am trying to get the witness to state specifically whether he sees a distinction between Dr Goebbels saying in his diaries, as quoted by me in my book, that the Jews had it coming to them on the one hand, and David Irving applauded what happened, the Holocaust, on the other. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is a false antithesis because applauding does not come into it. No-one is suggesting you applauded it. MR IRVING: Thank you very much. If the witness would say the same ---- MR JUSTICE GRAY: Will you listen, please. What is being suggested is that you have on occasions said that the Jews brought it on themselves. Now, if you say that is not true, put it to the witness, and he will probably go to paragraph 56 of his report in his answer. MR IRVING: Can we take this in two stages? Witness, you have heard his Lordship say nobody says that David Irving applauded the Holocaust. Does that include you? A. I have already pointed out several times I do not say in these paragraphs that you applaud the Holocaust however you conceive of it. Q. What you do say is that I state in my Goebbels biography that Goebbels believed that the Jews had it coming to . P-111 them. That is the first question. Goebbels believed they had it coming to them? A. Yes. Q. And that in the following page to which Mr Rampton has drawn attention I go on then to examine that piece by piece and say to what degree was Goebbels right. Is that effectively right? A. No.
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