Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day018.07 Last-Modified: 2000/07/24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: It depends a bit what the question is. Tell me what the question is going to be and then I will decide whether you can ask it. MR IRVING: The question will be: Witness, if you see photographs of members of my staff whom I have employed over the last 20 years, does it strike you that I am a racist? MR JUSTICE GRAY: What is your reaction to that? MR RAMPTON: My Lord, can I say this? This witness is not here to give evidence about whether or not Mr Irving is a racist. MR JUSTICE GRAY: He is perfectly open to cross-examination, I think, on his view. He may say, "I cannot answer because I have not seen the documents or seen the evidence". MR RAMPTON: With respect, I do not think he can. He is here as an expert in history. He is not here as an expert in racism. MR IRVING: He has accused me of anti-semitism and racism in his report. MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, it is for your Lordship to decide in . P-55 the end, and opinion evidence about whether or not Mr Irving is a racist is not admissible, with respect. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not so sure about that. The trouble is with this report I am not able to go to the passage that I think may be there. Unless you seek to argue it very strongly, Mr Rampton, I am inclined to accept that it can be put to this witness, I do not know what his answer is going to be, that Mr Irving has over the years employed a number of coloured people, does that have any influence on this witness's views of his agenda, if there is one? MR RAMPTON: That may be right but, if the witness is entitled to express a view about that, which I doubt because he is an historian, not a sociologist, even if he were a sociologist, I doubt it would help your Lordship, but he is not. But it would involve his being shown everything that I relied on as showing that Mr Irving is a racist, and only in the light of that information can this witness fairly answer a question about the colour of the skin of Mr Irving's servants. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I suspect that the position actually is with Professor Evans that he knows pretty much what the Defendants' case on this. MR RAMPTON: I do not know whether he does or not. I certainly have not discussed it with him. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we find out? Professor Evans, have you been reading the transcripts of this case? . P-56 A. Yes, I have. Q. Have you seen the cross-examination that took place on the issue of racism? A. Yes, I have. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am going to permit the question, but I do not think we want to spend terribly long on this. MR IRVING: Very well. I am landing you a clip of five pages of photographs. Can you see the date on the earliest one? Is it 1980? A. Yes. Q. Does it appear to show a female of Barbadian or Caribbean descent standing at the door of the car, a Rolls Royce, with her mother? A. Yes. Q. Will you turn the page, please? Does this show another woman of ethnic origin, of coloured origin? A. It is hard to tell. Q. Asian or black? A. Possibly. Q. Can you just look briefly at all the others and confirm that they are all ethnics working in an office? A. They are indeed. Q. Apparently quite content? A. Yes. Q. Would you accept from me that they were all my personal assistants over the years concerned, and that they . P-57 received a proper salary from me? A. Have you got documentary proof of that? Q. Yes. A. Could I have a look at it, please? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, let us take it as read that these ladies were all employed by Mr Irving. Does that, in your view, Professor Evans, affect the question whether, in his writings and in what he said, Mr Irving has displayed evidence of a racist attitude? That is the question. Then we are going to move on. A. Yes. In the end I do not think it does, my Lord. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Right. Now lets move to something else, Mr Irving. MR IRVING: Yes. This is another contentious issue, but we will deal with it very rapidly. Professor Evans, you have heard Mr Rampton talk about the expense of this trial and about how much it is costing per day no doubt? A. No. Q. Are you aware of the fact that the trial is costing a considerable amount each day that it runs? A. I imagine it must be. I have no idea how much. Q. In the little bundle of documents I gave you, headed "from Monday" will you see one page from the transcript, about page 8 or thereabouts, headed January 28th 2000? A. Yes. Q. Does this transcript appear to show that I have suggested . P-58 to the court that, if they were to send members of the Defence to Krakow to scrape the roof off the alleged gas chamber at Auschwitz and find the holes, I would wind up the case immediately because I could not possibly continue with my complaint? A. Yes, and the witness says he cannot comment on that. Q. The witness says he cannot comment, that is quite right. To your knowledge, has any attempt been made by the Defence to end the case rapidly in this dramatic way? A. I cannot really comment on that, I am afraid, any more than the witness you questioned could comment. I am not an expert on Auschwitz, Mr Irving. I am not here to answer questions about Auschwitz. I am here to answer questions on my report. So far, you have hardly asked a single one. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is for me, Professor Evans, thank you very much. MR IRVING: His Lord is aware of these problems that we have with the presentation of the Defence witnesses in this case. Are you familiar with the fact that a number of Defence witnesses in this case are not going to be giving evidence? A. I think one or two of them are not. I am not quite sure actually. Q. Are you aware of the fact that the Second Defendant is not going to give evidence, Professor Lipstadt? . P-59 A. Professor Lipstadt, yes, I am aware of that. Q. And that Professor Levin and Professor Eatwell will not be giving evidence? A. Yes, that is right. I understand, my Lord, that the Defence are perfectly entitled to do that. Q. Yes, and I make no criticism of them for that. Am I allowed to put to him a page of Professor Eatwell's report, my Lord? MR JUSTICE GRAY: In principle, yes. MR IRVING: It would be page 74, paragraph 4.6. I can read out the lines concerned? A. Could I have a copy, please? MR JUSTICE GRAY: It might be simpler, Professor Evans, if you hear the line that is going to be read to you and see whether you need the context. MR IRVING: My Lord, I think this probably goes to a matter we have dealt with, so I am not going to ask it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: All right. MR IRVING: I am sorry, yes, he does need it. Page 76 now. I think I ought just to refer in fact to page 74, to what Professor Eatwell about the matter we disposed of. A. Yes. Q. Page 74, paragraph 4.6, at line 9 Professor Eatwell, who was one of the experts who was working in tandem with you writes: "Yet Irving is an open advocate of the repatriation of immigrants. The fact that he has employed . P-60 'coloured' people does prove he is liberal". This is Professor Eatwell's view. A. Yes. Q. "The point here is not simply that he might perceive the advantages of this practice in terms of defusing charges of racism." In other words, Professor Eatwell, can I take it, is there suggesting that I deliberately employed this coloured staff in order not to be accused of racism? A. I think he is suggesting it is a possibility, though I cannot answer for him what he intends there. Q. It makes it very difficult for people, does it not, that we are hanged if we do and we are shot if we do not, so to speak? MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think that is really a question. That is a comment that you can make at the end of the case. MR IRVING: It is. The question I would ask Professor Evans, then, is what does it take to prove that one is not racist if one employs coloured people in exactly the same way as one employs whites, one does not prefer them or disadvantage them in any way, one pays them exactly the same amount. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That again, if I may say so, Mr Irving, is really argument and I understand the argument. But I do not think that Professor Evans can do much more on racism than he has done by his previous answers. . P-61 MR IRVING: Will you now go to page 76, Professor Eatwell? A. My name is Evans, not Eatwell. I did not write this report. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Professor Evans, will you take it that between us we will try and keep the questioning legitimate? A. OK. It is just that I do find it very difficult to answer questions on other people's reports which I have not written, which I have not researched, and which were not written in tandem with me but were written independently. MR IRVING: We are appealing here to your common sense as a learned person really, asking for your opinion. A. But I am here as an expert, Mr Irving. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us get on. MR IRVING: I am sure that his Lordship would have no objection if you wish to sit actually, Professor. A. I am happier standing actually. It makes moving around with the documents easier. Q. Page 76 at paragraph 4.11 the same kind of argument. Again, it is by Professor Eatwell and not yourself but I am entitled, I think, to put the question to you. "The fact that Irving has on occasion made some criticisms of Hitler does not prove that he is an anti-fascist. There are clear tactical reasons to adopt such a position." Is this your argument also, Professor Evans? A. I think he is concerned here with your current political . P-62 position, whereas I am concerned with your historical writings. Q. Yes. So would you argue the fact that, and I shall show you this next week, I have made large numbers of statements in my biographies of various top Nazis, which can in no way be described as proHitler or proNazi, would you agree with Professor Eatwell's inference or imputation that I have done this in order to defuse criticism and for no other reason? A. You would have to show me the statements first before I could comment on them. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is, I suppose, in a way a legitimate answer, but can I just persuade you that it can be answered generally in this way? It is right, if you read Hitler's War, that there are critical statements made about Hitler, quite a number of them, and the question is simply this, and perhaps you would be good enough to try and answer it. Have you seen evidence that those are inserted into Hitler's War for what you might call tactical reasons, in other words for Mr Irving to be able to draw attention to them and use them in disproof of any allegation that he is a Hitler partisan? A. That is very speculative, I think. What I do do in my report is to go through some of the critical points that Mr Irving makes, and they do not, in my view, detract from the fact that he is in general someone who admires Hitler, . P-63 put it like that. I would not really want to speculate on why they are being put in for political, what political reasons they might be put in for, which is really what Professor Eatwell is talking about. I think he is talking about something slightly different. My concern is with Mr Irving's attitude toward Hitler in his historical writings. Of course, there are criticisms of Hitler there, I perfectly accept that. MR JUSTICE GRAY: That is, if I may say so, a perfectly complete and fair answer. A. It is not really a concern of mine to show why they have been put there.
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