Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day015.04
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR RAMPTON:  There might be a problem if you have had an
        immigration officer newly brought from, let us say, the
        north west provinces of China who did not speak English.
        Beyond that I simply do not understand what you are
        saying, I am afraid.
   A.   I think I have explained it relatively well.  On the
        balance of probabilities at the time that I am talking
        about, these people have not been born in England.  You
        were referring specifically to these people, these people
        that you have referred to.  They have not been born in
        England, but they have been granted jobs in the Customs
        and Immigration service, and we find that they are
        checking our right to come back into the country in which
        we have been born, which strikes me as being paradoxical.
        This is what I am trying to convey to the readers.
   Q.   Do you have any idea, Mr Irving?  I do not, but I can
        easily find out if it is necessary.  Do you any idea,
        Mr Irving, how many of the so-called coloured minorities,
        minority peoples, in this country have been born here?

.          P-28

   A.   Are you going to lead evidence on this?
   Q.   No.  I want to know if you know.
   A.   Well, I have no idea whatsoever that I can state here on
        oath, no.
   Q.   Then what is the basis for your remark that on a balance
        of probabilities that chap at the airport not been born here?
   A.   That is why I used the phrase "on the balance of
        probabilities".
   Q.   What is your basis for thinking there is a balance of
        probabilities?
   A.   Because we know of the rate at which immigration occurred
        within the last ten years, within last 15 years, at the
        time this speech had been, so on the balance of
        probabilities these are recent arrivals, which is why
        I stated that.  Now can we have the rest of that
        sentence?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, by all means.
   A.   Nothing makes me shudder more than arriving "and I go
        outside the Terminal building and there is an Evening
        Standard placard saying, 'Kinnock in fresh Wedgwood
Benn
        row'".  That is what made me shudder.  You tried to
        pretend it was a Pakistani immigration official that
made
        me shudder.  That is what I call manipulation.
   MR RAMPTON:  Oh, really? Mr Irving, I am afraid I reverse
that
        arrow and throw it straight back at you, because it is

.          P-29



        exactly what you have just done.  What you were
telling
        your audience, which is why you got laughter and
applause,
        is that there was a humiliating experience of having
your
        passport checked by some dreadful little brown man who
had
        no business to be here that made you shudder.
   A.   No.  It is having it checked by a foreigner that made
me
        shudder.  You yourself adduced the fact that he was
        brown.  Pakistanis of course are not necessarily
        brown.  It is perfectly possible to be Pakistani and
        white, but you are the one who has the racist attitude
and
        you automatically assume that the Pakistani is brown.
   Q.   There are some, very few we know but, Mr Irving, do
        not----
   A.   I know a number of very interesting cases of English
        people who are born in Pakistan and found difficulties
        getting back into England.
   Q.   Mr Irving, this passage in your speech is all about
        coloured immigrants.
   A.   It is not.  It is about immigration, of which the
major
        element is coloured immigration, of course, at that
time.
   Q.   Yes, and so that is why you chose----
   A.   Now of course we have other immigration which is
causing
        problems. I would deliver exactly the same speech now
        about immigration from central Europe which is not a
        coloured immigration problem.
   Q.   That is why you chose the Pakistan instead of somebody

.          P-30



        else of, say, German ancestry, is it not?.
   A.   It is unlikely there would be a German checking our
        passports at Passport Control.  I think that probably
        everyone would draw the line at that.
   Q.   Why do you not say, "What makes me shudder, it is so
        humiliating, when I get back to London I too often
find
        that the immigration officer is an Australian"?
   A.   You are manipulating this again. What made me shudder
was
        the placard outside reading, "Kinnock in fresh row
with
        Wedgwood Benn" and you know you are back in England
again.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It speaks for itself, does it not?
   A.   He is manipulating again, and trying to tell the
public
        gallery that I shuddered at arriving and finding a
        Pakistani checking my passport.
   MR RAMPTON:  Now, my Lord, I propose to pass from racism --
--
   A.   That is precisely the kind of manipulation that I am
        accused of.
   Q.   I propose to pass from racism -- I have said enough
about
        that, I believe -- to Moscow.
   A.   Can we then in at that case please call my witness
first?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, but just before you do that, I want
to
        get something straight.  I have got a clip, which
        I suppose consists of, I do not know, 30/40 speeches
or
        extracts from the speeches.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It seems to me that on this aspect of the

.          P-31



        case the position is somewhat different.  The mere
fact
        you have not cross-examined on these other speeches.
   MR RAMPTON:  I should have said that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That does not, it seems to me, mean that
they
        are not part of the case and, Mr Irving, you should be
        clear that that is the way in which I am approaching
this
        part of the case.  Do you follow what I am saying?.
   A.   In other words, you intend to take into account the
other
        ones on which he has not cross-examined?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.  I think that must be right on this
part
        of the case, that being the criticism, because you
have
        explained very clearly, if I may say so, what your
views
        are on the topic of alleged racism.
   A.   Yes or whatever, patriotism.
   Q.   I think I am entitled therefore to look at the
totality of
        all this.
   A.   Well I would have preferred that they would have
marked
        those passages in the full text of the speeches.
   MR RAMPTON:  They are.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  They are.  That is what has been done,
you
        see.  I have the full context..
   A.   And that you would have looked at the full text so you
        could have seen the full context.
   MR RAMPTON:  I would invite your Lordship -- I should have
said
        it.  I did sort of indicate it when I started, by
saying,
        if we went through every single one, we would be here

.          P-32



        until Christmas, which we would have been.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I wanted to spell it out and have it on
the
        transcript.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am very grateful. I do urge your Lordship,
as
        far as your Lordship wishes to do, it is entirely a
matter
        for yourself, to read as much of the whole of the
speeches
        as is relevant, which are not necessarily just the
        passages marked.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have been through quite a lot of it
before
        we even started.
   MR RAMPTON:  That is not excellent.  That is really not for
my
        sake but for Mr Irving's sake. My Lord, can I say
        something before Mr Millar is called, and tell your
        Lordship our proposal in relation to what I might call
        Mr Irving's right-wing associations.  I mean that at
the
        moment in a neutral sense.  The relevant documents,
which
        consist of letters, diary entries, and so on and so
forth,
        are spread across 14 files.  Cross-examination making
        reference to 14 different files is, we believe, simply
not
        practical.  What we -- I say "we", I mean Miss Rogers
--
        is actually going to do is to produce a single file,
as we
        have for Moscow and for Dresden and for this topic
that we
        are have been dealing with, which shall have -- this
is
        not necessarily written in stone -- but documents
        relating to the IHR, and these will all be the
plaintiffs
        documents, sorry Mr Irving's documents, correspondence

.          P-33



        with Zundel, correspondence with German right-wing
        persons, the DVU, somebody called Woch, Kristofferson,
        Altsans and Karl Philip.  Then there will be some
diary
        entries as well relating to all over the world, but
they
        will be in sequence.  Whether we divide them up by
        country, I do not know.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is fine by me.  I am anxious that it
        does not prejudice Mr Irving.  I do not think it will,
        will it, Mr Irving?
   A.   Once again, as we have frequently seen in the past
when
        they have done this kind of selection exercise, they
have
        left out sometimes replies which are germane to the
issue,
        and they have left out other letters which tend to
        neutralize the effect of the first.  And, of course, I
am
        also preparing a very extensive selection of extracts
from
        the diaries which neutralise their extraction from the
        diaries.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do know how you want deal with that
        physically because it is a problem.  You are perfectly
        entitled, if a document is put to you, to say, well,
that
        is fine but you must also have available the reply,
        whatever it may be.
   A.   At present we are intending to come back with our
counter
        attack when we have the chance of cross-examining each
        witness concerned, Professor Funke and the others.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In the context of this case I think that
is

.          P-34



        probably a reasonable way of dealing with it.
   A.   It makes more sense, but of course it is going to
produce
        a very lopsided effect to start with and I would ask
your
        Lordship to bear that in mind.
   MR RAMPTON:  What will also be in the file, my Lord, is the
        statement of case on this part of the case, which will
be
        cross-referenced to the contents of the file, and also
the
        relevant request for information and Mr Irving's
        responses.  Mr Irving will necessarily and obviously
get a
        copy of the file.  I hope he will get one before your
        Lordship sees it.  If he has any objection to it,
aside
        from the fact that he may want your Lordship to see
other
        stuff, then no doubt he will say so.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  When are you thinking we are going to
embark
        on this? We are going get that when?  On Monday?
   MR RAMPTON:  It will be ready by Monday, yes, but at the
moment
        my sense of direction if I can use that, tells me
that,
        unless your Lordship thinks it right that I should do
so,
        or unless we have a change of heart overnight, it may
not
        be necessary for me to cross-examine on that topic at
all.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is entirely a matter for you.
   MR RAMPTON:  I know it is.  What I am not proposing at the
        moment is that the file should be produced on Monday
and
        that I should carry on cross-examining Mr Irving.  If,
        when everybody has digested the contents of the file,
        I would have to have your Lordship's permission if

.          P-35



        I wanted to cross-examine, your Lordship could ask me
to
        do so, and I would do so, if asked, or Mr Irving might
        want me to.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I will have to wait and see what is in
the
        file.  Mr Irving may have a view about this as well.
   MR RAMPTON:  Of course.  I add this.  For fairly obvious
        reasons, the one witness on this that we are going to
call
        is Dr Funke from Berlin, who is an expert in this area
in
        academic life in Germany, and he will be called as a
        witness.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Then I think it has to be put.
   A.   In view of the undertones in that remark, can I ask
what
        other witnesses they do not intend calling, because we
        have prepared very extensively for cross-examination
of
        Professor Levin, and Professor Eatwell.
   MR RAMPTON:  He is not coming.
   A.   This is news, of course.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It will help Mr Irving if he knows what
he
        does not have to deal with.
   MR RAMPTON:  He does not have to bother with Professor
Eatwell
        or Professor Levin.
   A.   This is news which I am hearing for the first time.
We
        have spent many weeks preparing documents for the
purpose
        of cross-examination of those two witnesses, and this
is
        not the way that a case should be conducted.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think it would be helpful if, to the
extent

.          P-36



        that witnesses are not going to be called, that Mr
Irving
        should be, as it were, the first to hear.
   MR RAMPTON:  He is.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  In this case that is quite important.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is a decision that I made, I think probably
        yesterday.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  The reasons for it I am certainly not going to
go
        into.  I do not have to at all.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No.

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