Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.25
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   MR RAMPTON:  Ask his Lordship to read it, but I am not going to
        read it all out.  It is a waste of the court's time and of
        my vocal chords.  If you go please to the first column,
        five paragraphs down, you write this: "Nobody like to be
        swindled, still less where considerable sums of money are
        involved (since 1949 the state of Israel has received over
        90 billion deutschemarks in voluntary reparations from
        West Germany, essentially in atonement for the "gas
        chambers of Auschwitz)".  Gas chambers in plural.  Then
        you go on: "This myth will not die easily."
                  Then you go on about how it was an ingenious
        plan invented by the PWE during the war.  Please go to the
        next column, second paragraph.  I will start at the first
        paragraph first complete paragraph:

.          P-31



                  "Yet I have to admit" -- this is you
        Mr Irving -- "that it would never have occurred to me to
        subject the actual fabric of the Auschwitz concentration
        camp and its "gas chambers" - the holiest shrines of this
        new 20th century religion -  to chemical tests to see
if
        there was any trace of cyanide compounds in the walls.
        The truly astonishing results are as set out in this
        report: While significant quantities of cyanide
compounds
        were found in the small delousing facilities of the
camp,
        whether proprietary and lethal compounds were used, as
all
        are agreed, to disinfect the plague ridden clothing of
all
        persons entering these brutal slave labour camps, no
        significant trace whatsoever was found in the
buildings
        which international opinion - for it is not more than
that
        -- as always labelled as the camps' infamous gas
        chambers.  Nor, as the report's gruesomely expert
author
        makes plain, could the design and construction of
those
        buildings have made their use as mass gas chambers
        feasible under any circumstances".
                  Then in the next paragraph you write that
you
        have reservations about his methodology, but they are
        reservations which you quickly, if I may suggest,
        abandon.  You end the paragraph: "The video tapes made
        simultaneously by the team - which I have studied -
        provide compelling visual evidence of the scrupulous
        methods that they use".  Then you finish up: "Until
the

.          P-32



        end of this tragic century there will always be
        incorrigible historians, statesmen and publicists, who
are
        content to believe, or have no economically viable
        alternative but to believe, that the Nazis used "gas
        chambers" at Auschwitz to kill human beings.  But it
is
        now up to them to explain to me as an intelligent and
        critical student of modern history why there is no
        significant trace of any cyanide compound in the
building
        which they have always identified as the former gas
        chambers".
   A.   "The building" is in the singular.
   Q.   Sorry, "in the building which they always identified
as
        the former gas chambers.  Forensic chemistry is, I
repeat,
        an exact science.  The ball is in their court."
                  Mr Irving, just so that we do not get
tangled up
        in singular or plural gas chambers, please turn
quickly to
        ----
   A.   You rather skated over the paragraph, of course, in
which
        I drew attention to the flaws in the report.
   Q.   You can draw attention that in your re-examination,
        Mr Irving.
   A.   Yes, but several days will pass between now and then.
   Q.   I am trying to make progress.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is a reference to the sentence where
you
        say you prefer to have seen more rigorous methods used
in
        identifying and so on?

.          P-33



   A.   Indeed, my Lord.  I accept already at this time that
the
        report is flawed.
   MR RAMPTON:  As will you see, Mr Irving, as time goes by,
your
        reservations seem to vanish into thin air.
   A.   Completely the opposite.  If you read the
correspondence
        in this very bundle which you put before the court,
there
        are letters between me and Mr Zundel and other people
        saying that engineers have now drawn attention to the
        serious flaws in the Leuchter report, and we have to
        address them.
   Q.   We are going to look at that.  The point is this,
        Mr Irving.
   A.   My reservations did not vanish.
   Q.   What you say privately to people like Mark Weber and
Ernst
        Zundel is quite different from what you say publicly.
        That is my point and this is where we are going to go
        today.
   A.   Good.
   Q.   You say publicly that which you know to be untrue
about
        the value of the Leuchter report.
   A.   In the meantime, of course, we have other reports to
back
        up the original conclusions of the Leuchter report.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do not let us get distracted.  You have
made
        your point about the flaws in the methodology.
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Just so we do not have any more confusion
about

.          P-34



        this at all, had you read this version of the Leuchter
        report when you wrote your introduction?
   A.   No.  I had read, of course, the original affidavit,
the
        full length affidavit of which this is a precis.
   Q.   Had you read this version of the Leuchter report
before
        your press conference in June 1989?
   A.   No.  Why should I read the abridged version when I had
        already read the full version length version?
   Q.   Because you are the publisher, Mr Irving.  It is a
very
        short document.
   A.   I am sorry to disappoint you, but that does not
        necessarily follow.  I had read the original one inch
        thick version.
   Q.   Just look on page 15.
   A.   Had I attended in greater detail to this, there are
        certain things that I would not have tolerated, for
        example the sideways printing I would not have liked,
        things like that.
   Q.   Just look at page 15 of this version of the Leuchter
        report.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Which is published by you in the right hand column
under
        the heading "Forensic considerations of HCN cyanide
        compounds..." in the bottom right hand corner.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Look at the second paragraph.

.          P-35



   A.   Yes.
   Q.  "31 samples were selectively removed from the alleged
gas
        chambers (plural) at Kramers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, a
control
        sample was taken from delousing facility no 1 at
        Birkenau ".  Let us not have any more of this nonsense
        that, when you talk about the gas chambers at
Auschwitz
        and the value of Mr Leuchter's report, you are talking
        simply about the reconstructed gas chamber at
Auschwitz.
   A.   I never said that.  On the contrary, this is exactly
what
        I have denied saying.  We are referring to all the
        buildings which are now claimed to have been gas
chambers,
        from which these samples were taken.
   Q.   If you look at the next paragraph, while we have it
open
        and I shall not have to come back to it, you write in
        bold, or it is printed in bold under your imprint:
"The
        control sample was removed from any delousing chamber
in a
        location where cyanide was known to have been used and
        was apparently present as blue staining.  The chemical
        testing of control sample No. 32 showed a cyanide
content
        of 1,050 milligram per kilogram, a very heavy
        concentration".  Perfectly right.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And sample No. 32 is the one taken from
the
        Birkenhau delousing facility.  Is that right?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  When Professor van Pelt gives evidence,
he
        will make it a good deal clearer but, if your Lordship
        looks at page 26 of this report, this time the page is
on

.          P-36



        the left hand corner, there is a plan of Birkenhau at
the
        bottom of the page.  On the right-hand side of that
plan
        is a key and F in the key is delousing facility No. 1,
        where Mr Leuchter says he found concentration of over
        1,000 milligrams per kilogram of some kind of cyanide
        compound.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is bottom left.
   MR RAMPTON:  Exactly. That is the building known as BW 5A.
It
        is a brick building and it is in what became the
women's
        part of the camp at Birkenau.  It is there to this
day.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is on your case the first gas
chamber?
   MR RAMPTON:  No, it is not a gas chamber at all.  That is a
        delousing facility.  If your Lordship wants to look at
        where the gas chambers are, they are K 2 on the left-
hand
        side and K 3, and then in the middle of the page
towards
        the top there is K 4 and K 5.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I have not found K 2 and K 3.
   MR RAMPTON:  On the left, my Lord, you see the compass.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Up there yes, I see.
   MR RAMPTON:  If one goes southeast of the compass, they are
        side by side, either side of the railway track.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is all Birkenhau?
   MR RAMPTON:  This is all Birkenhau, as it says in the
bottom
        left hand corner.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, sorry.  That was my enquiry.
   MR RAMPTON:  Your Lordship should ignore the little (f) at
the

.          P-37



        top of the page.  That is not Mr Leuchter's (f).  That
is
        an (f) from the original plan and that is a separate
        delousing facility that was built in 1944, and which
was
        hardly used in the Zyklon bay at all, mostly steam
        autoclaves as are shown in the front of the report.
                  Then I will read on, if I may, Mr Irving, on
        page 15: "The conditions and areas from which these
        samples were taken are identical with those of the
        controlled sample, cold dark and wet.  Only Kramers 4
and
        5 differed in the respect that these locations  had
        sunlight, the buildings had been torn down, and
sunlight
        may hasten the destruction of uncomplex cyanide.  The
        cyanide in the mortar and brick becomes ferro-cyanide
or
        Prussian blue pigment, a very stable iron cyonide
        complex".
                  Are you aware of the errors in that
paragraph,
        Mr Irving?
   A.   I am not a chemical expert.
   Q.   Are you aware of the errors in the description of the
        state of the buildings?
   A.   No.
   Q.   Then he says the locations from which the analysed
samples
        were removed are set out in table 3.
   A.   If you are going to say there are errors, perhaps you
        ought to explain to the court what the errors are.
   Q.   No, Mr Irving.  If you do not know what they are?

.          P-38



   A.   You just claimed there were errors.
   Q.   Yes, there are errors. Van Pelt's report is full of
errors
        identified, for example, crematoria 2 and 3 are open
to
        the skies, the ruins.
   A.   I have very big photographs taken recently of those
        crematoria which I will show to the court this
afternoon,
        if the court pleases.
   Q.   That is fine, Mr Irving.  They are open to the skies.
        They were blown up in early 1935 just before the
Russians
        got there.  They are ruins.  The delousing facility BW
5A
        in the women's camp is a perfectly intact building
with a
        roof on it.
   A.   I beg to differ.  The morgue No. 1 of crematorium II
may
        have been blown up but it is intact inasmuch as the
roof
        just pancaked downwards and it is possible to crawl
        underneath the roof, which is what I believe Mr
Leuchter
        did.
   Q.   What about crematorium III?  He took samples there
too,
        did he not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Look what he found. "It is notable that almost all the
        samples were negative and that the few that were
positive
        were very close to the detection level, one milligram"
--
        he has misprinted printed this, it is not KP but KG --
        "per KG, 6.7 milligrams per K G at Kramer 3, 7.9
        milligrams per kilogram at Kramer 1", that is in the
old

.          P-39



        camp, Auschwitz I.
   A.   "Close to the detection level" means of no
significance,
        in other words no statistical significance.
   Q.   I thought you were not a scientist?
   A.   You asked me what I know about ferro-cyanides and
        uncomplex cyanide compounds.  I am afraid I am way out
of
        my depth there.
   Q.   You know it is wrong that it is very stable, do you
not?
   A.   Ferro-cyanide is so stable that it is used as a dye
stuff,
        Prussian blue.
   Q.   Not if it is exposed to the elements over a period of
40
        years.
   A.   We will produce photographs to the court to show just
how
        stable it is.
   Q.   It goes on: "In the absence of any consequential
readings
        at any of the tested locations as compared with the
        controlled sample reading of 1050 milligrams per
kilogram
        supports the evidence that these facilities were not
        execution gas chambers.  The small quantities detected
        would indicate that at some point these building were
        deloused with Zyklon bay as were all the buildings at
        these facilities.  Additionally, the areas of blue
        staining show a high iron content indicated ferro
cyanide
        no longer hydrogen cyanide."  Then in italics in bold,
        which we have seen before but I will just read it
again
        now, "One would have expected higher cyanide detection
in

.          P-40



        the samples taken from the alleged gas chambers
because of
        the greater amount of gas alleged to be utilized there
        than that found in the controlled samples.  Since the
        contrary is true, one must conclude that these
facilities
        were not execution chambers when coupled with all the
        other evidence gained on inspection."
                  Leave it there, will you, for the moment?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I ask this question because we are
        plundering into this and I do need to, sort of,
understand
        the big picture.  Is this the passage which struck you
        when you first saw the affidavit which led you to have
        your change of mind?
   A.   The statistical table, quite simply, the contrast
between
        the enormous quantities in the delousing chamber and
the
        infinitesimally insignificant quantities in the
alleged
        homicidal gas chambers where, allegedly, 500,000
people
        had been gassed to death.
   Q.   My question is whether it is the text or whether ----
   A.   It is.

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