Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day008.24 Last-Modified: 2000/07/20 MR RAMPTON: I am sorry, Mr Irving, it is the same file as the one from the Leuchter press conference. A. Now we have it. . P-22 Q. Before we look at this, Mr Irving, tell me when you went to Syracuse, as you call it. A. I would have to look at my notes to see precisely when I went to Syracuse in fact on two or three occasions. Q. You wrote to us on 21 December 1999. You said -- my Lord, this is inter partes correspondence -- "I originally read Judge Biddle's papers at Syracuse in about 1988"? A. Off the top of my head, that may have been correct. I went to Syracuse two or three times because they have many collections of papers there. Q. So, when you are speaking at the Leuchter press conference in 1989, that is not more than a year after you have seen the notes, is it? A. In that event, yes, but I will come back with further and better information, if you want to know the exact date. Q. This speech in Toronto which I am now asking you to look at, was made in August 1988? A. Yes. Q. And on page 18 you say this. Actually, we had better start on page 17 because this may be important. Can you read, please, from about the beginning of the second quarter of the page, there is a sentence: "Let me just read out the kind of material that was given in the witness box in Nuremberg". Then you mention Judge Biddle. Have you got that on page 17? . P-23 A. Yes. Q. Would you read to yourself please, not out loud if you do not mind, all of the rest of that page and down to the end of the first complete paragraph on page 18? A. (Pause for reading) Yes. I clearly had my notes in front of me when I was saying this. Q. You give some sort of an account of many things about which the French lady testified. A. Yes. Q. You finish that account with the piece about the prostitution, and then you say: "Here Judge Biddle writes in brackets in his diary 'all this I doubt'. Why did he not say it at the time, for heavens sake but he just sat there with his face motionless because he is an American judge, but in his private diary he writes", you repeat it, "all this I doubt", and so it goes on, and I am not going to read the rest of it. A. Right. I had my notes in front of me. Q. That is not what Judge Biddle said, is it? A. But I am just stating quite clearly I had my notes in front of me when I was making this statement, and I added the word "all", but I would aver that that is precisely what I said in my earlier statement, that he has clearly referred to all that has gone before. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but he did not say that. A. He did not say that, my Lord. . P-24 MR RAMPTON: Do you not see the difference between "all this I doubt" which I quite agree with you might certainly have reference to the evidence given to date by that lady, and the words "this I doubt" in parenthesis against a single statement in a single paragraph? A. This is precisely what I said in my previous statement. My conclusion from reading his diary was that he was referring to the foregoing, all these incredible stories which are here listed in summary form in my speech about the baby saying, "can I walk now I have had my leg torn off?" and all this kind of thing. Q. I am going to suggest to you that you made that speech in Toronto on the same visit to North America as when you first saw the Biddle notes. A. No. I think from the way it is constructed, the fact that the passages in my speech here follow closely at first glimpse anyway the actual notes that I typed on to the index cards that I clearly had the index cards in front of me when I was making this statement. Q. You distorted what they said, did you not. A. I added the word "all" to make it more literate for an audience. Q. Yes, you added the word "all"? A. This is not a distortion of what my own perception was of that paragraph, that he was clearly referring to all the foregoing. . P-25 Q. Very well. I will just tell you for the sake of record. A. Clearly, he would not just have put in this unusual parentheses just because she is talking about a house of prostitution. It was well known at that time that there were brothels in all the SS concentration camps camp, in Dachau and everywhere else they had brothels for the use of the prisoners. This was well known at Nuremberg, so he certainly would not have put that in brackets "this I doubt" at that point. That refers to what he has heard up to this point. Q. Even now, Mr Irving, you will not or cannot read the words in front of you. Actually the sentence which precedes the parenthesis is "all camps used the same system", is it not? MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, and it might well have been a reference to that. MR RAMPTON: Exactly. A. It might well have been, but that was not my reading of it. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Anyway ----. A. On the basis of my knowledge of the Biddle papers and on the basis of this particular one. MR RAMPTON: Yes, Mr Irving. Just for completeness, your diary tells us that you were in Syracuse on August 11th 1988, you made this entry, "worked at Syracuse University all day, very hot, private papers yielded little but the . P-26 Nuremberg trials collection of Judge Francis Biddle had some gems, including his diary (with comments of I do not believe) comments you put in the plural, on one Auschwitz"? A. That clearly shows that I took that as being a reference to all his comment and not just the previous comment. I am indebted to you for pointing out exactly when I saw it, which was a few days before this which means I was carrying those index cards with me at the time I went to this lecture. Q. On that occasion in Toronto in the press conference, in London the following year and in your Nuremberg book, you told a lie about what the notes said, did you not? A. The difference clearly is that in Toronto, I have driven up from Syracuse to Toronto probably two or three days later and made the speech with the cards in front of me, whereas at the Leuchter press conference I am giving the sense of it from memory, and that is clearly the sense, as I have told the court, I had from that comment made by Judge Biddle in his own private papers. Listening to this witness with her incredible stories about beating machines and all the rest of it, he writes down in brackets "this I doubt". Frankly, I do not think there is very much mileage to be made out of that. Q. Now we are going to go to Leuchter, Mr Irving. If you put that file on one side, I am coming back to it in a moment, . P-27 the file of what you said about Leuchter. Before I do that, I would like you to look at the Leuchter report itself, which is the first divider in the first Auschwitz, file K 1. It has a cover and an inside page headed Ernst Zundel. Have you got that? A. Yes. Q. At the bottom of the page you write what the cover pictures are, because there are four of them. A. You are stating that I wrote this? Q. I do not know who wrote this. A. I am the publisher of this, not the writer of it. Q. Who writes the information? A. I wrote the introduction. Q. About what the pictures represent? MR JUSTICE GRAY: So this is not the report submitted to the Canadian court? MR RAMPTON: No. I do not believe I need to use that if I have Mr Irving's own published version. MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not being critical. I am just trying to ensure that I know what I am looking at. MR RAMPTON: I do not know if I have ever seen that. A. You have. It has been in the discovery and it is very much more comprehensive than this. Q. That does not mean that I have seen it, Mr Irving. This is published by Focal Point Publications, London, June 1989. A. Yes. The notice said published by, not written by. . P-28 Q. My question was, do you see that in effect on the inside page somebody has provided captions for the cover pictures under the line at the bottom of the page? It is not very easy to read. A. On the inside page? Q. Yes. That is right. There is a picture of some machinery I think, by the look of things. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Which page are you on now? MR RAMPTON: My Lord, there is a cover and on the next page there is a picture of what looks like machinery. Cameras. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Cameras, yes. It is Monday morning! MR RAMPTON: I know it is Monday. This is a rotten copy. It could be anything. It could be a sheep shearing station? A. Or a beating machine. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Let us get on. MR RAMPTON: The line at the bottom of the page, underneath of the line are provided captions for the cover pictures on the front cover. What I ask you is who wrote those captions? A. I do not know. Q. You do not? A. It was not me. Q. Well, you published this thing. A. There is a distinction between publishers and authors. I explained it to you. Q. I know that, but a publisher normally has to organise the . P-29 printing of the pictures. He has to make sure that the pictures are properly identified and he usually knows who does it, does he not? A. For purposes of this court, it would satisfy you if I say on oath that I did not write that, surely? Q. Not necessarily, no, Mr Irving. Look at the one in the bottom right hand corner. A. The picture? Q. No. First of all, caption. It says bottom right that an actual fumigating chamber was used to delouse inmates' clothes. A. You have lost me, I am afraid. MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have lost me too. A. You have lost us both. MR RAMPTON: Then I will have to come back to it the copy you have is not the copy that I have. It is on Mr Julius's copy. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Maybe I am looking in the wrong place, but I do not think I have it. MR RAMPTON: I just want to make sure the Foreword is the same before we get completely -- MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think there is any problem about that. It is about six pages in. Foreword by David Irving. Have you got the Foreword now? A. Yes. MR RAMPTON: You wrote the Foreword, it appears, in May 1989? . P-30 A. Yes. Q. It is copyright? A. Yes. Q. David Irving. You start: "Unlike the writing of history chemistry is an exact science", yes? A. Yes. Q. I am not going to read the whole of it by any manner of means. There are only some small parts that I need for this purpose. A. I rely on the whole Foreword and not just on the parts you are going to read. MR JUSTICE GRAY: Rely on me to read them.
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