Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day007.09
Last-Modified: 2000/07/20

   Q.   It is written to Muller.  Now I need your help -- you are
        very good at this -- can you please translate the text for
        us?
   A.   You are too kind.  "I ordain that from now on the Jews
        that are still on hand in France and also of the Hungarian
        and Rumanian Jews, all those who have influential
        relatives in America, are to be concentrated in a special
        camp.  There they are, indeed, to work but under
        conditions that they remain sound and alive.  This kind of
        Jews are valuable hostages for us.  I am thinking of a
        figure of around 10,000" ----
   Q.   Yes.
   A.   --- "in this connection".
   Q.   10,000 from all three countries?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   There are special Jews who are preserved because they
have

.          P-72



        skills?
   A.   That is right, yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Or because they have influential
relatives in
        America?
   A.   That is right.
   MR RAMPTON:  Even suppose we divide 10,000 in three equal
parts
        and subtract it from 600,000, we have the best part of
        600,000 still left who have nothing whatever to do
with
        this piece of paper, do they?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   This is one camp?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Einem sonderlager?
   A.   Yes?  The hostages' camp.
   Q.   Tell me about the other camps which you say in
        Germany  ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- which is the destination for the remaining
whatever it
        is, 597,000?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure he did say that.
   A.   Well, I certainly did not say those figures.  I do not
        think we accept the figures.
   MR RAMPTON:  I said I was challenging the proposition that
         "Abschaffen" meant "transported" and I think Mr
Irving
        said, "And, what is more, we know where they were
being
        transported to, camps being built in Germany".

.          P-73



   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Did we not then ask when French Jews he
was
        talking about was going to Germany?
   MR RAMPTON:  Perhaps he would answer that question?
   A.   The balance ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can you elucidate because we are really
        concerned with the other French Jews and I think I
have
        put the question already.
   MR RAMPTON:  The balance were to be departed to Germany,
but
        that is not a reference to those other Jews, that
        document, is it?
   A.   Well, Professor Longerich has given us a rather thin
gruel
        of documents on which to draw our conclusions, but I
am
        familiar with the documents that I have read and I am
        quite happy to bring them to the court on Monday, that
        special camps were being erected at this time to
receive
        these French Jews who were being deported, not just
one
        camp, but more than one camp.  Eichmann is involved in
        the construction, if my memory is correct -- it is
about
        two or three months sine I read these documents -- and
        from my own personal knowledge, large numbers of
French
        Jews were put to work in the German Arms industry.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  So they all went to camps in Germany,
these
        other, balance of the French Jews?
   A.   My Lord, I am not going to say "all".
   Q.   The vast part?
   A.   That would be something I could not swear to.

.          P-74



   Q.   The vast part?
   MR RAMPTON:  I would be very grateful and I am going to
leave
        it there for the moment.
   A.   I shall bring the documents and I will make a note to.
   Q.   If you bring the documents, then it is no good my
pouring
        over documents; may I copy them and given them to my
        experts to look at?
   A.   Yes.  I will fax them over the weekend, the ones that
we
        intend to rely on.
   Q.   Would your Lordship forgive me for one moment?  Mr
Irving,
        could you find page 462 of Hitler's War 1977?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And page 511 of Hitler's War 1991.  If you would look,
        page 462 of 1977 falls neatly into two halves.  I do
not
        need you to read it out and I am not going to either.
        Could you read that last paragraph on 462?
   A.   "When Heinreich Himmler came to headquarters" ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I think to yourself.
   MR RAMPTON:  No, just to yourself.  The people in this
        courtroom are going to get tired of hearing our
voices,
        I would imagine, Mr Irving.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Thank you.  Now would you read to yourself in the same
way
        the middle paragraph on page 511?
   A.   I am not happy with reading these things to myself
because
        the court transcript does not know what I am reading
to

.          P-75



        myself.
   MR RAMPTON:  I see.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  It can be determined later what was being
        read.  So can we proceed in this way for the time
being?
        It just saves time.
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.  It is the middle paragraph on 511.
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   It does save time.
   A.   The parenthesis in brackets you are looking at which
has
        vanished between the two volumes.
   Q.   I am looking at two things.  In the text of 462 the
word
         "Abschaffen" is translated by you as "remove"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   In the footnote it is "dispose of"?
   A.   462, you mean the end note?
   Q.   Sorry, I call them footnotes.  That is very clumsy of
me.
        Yes, the end note.
   A.   I have given the German and the translation that
        I propose, yes, in each case.
   Q.   But in the text you have, what shall I say, edged away
        from "disposed of" and replaced it with "removed"?
   A.   I have not edged away from anything, Mr Rampton.  I
have
        just used the word "removed" and in the scientific end
        note I have then given the original German in both
        versions, once "Abschaffen" which I have translated as

.          P-76



        "disposed of" and I have said:  "In his subsequent
memo
        to the Gestapo Chief Muller, however, he used the
milder
        words 'Verhaftet und abtransportieren' "arrested and
        transported away".
   Q.   But, Mr Irving, you see the word has now been through
two
        processes.  It starts off in German.  Fair enough, it
has
        to be translated.  When that happens in the end note,
it
        is "disposed of".  Now it has become "remove"?
   A.   Mr Rampton, are you familiar with the concept that
        sometimes one word in one language can only be given,
you
        can only get the meaning by giving its three
alternative
        meanings in another language if you do not have an
exact
        synonym between the two languages.
   Q.   But you do not want to go back to the Langenscheit, to
my
        primary meanings; you have been into that trap once
        already this morning.
   A.   Well, Langenscheit is probably not concentrating on
the
        fact we are talking about people.  They are probably
        talking about Abschaffen of a government or Abschaffen
of
        a condition or a situation.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  511 of what?  I am so sorry.  I am lost.
   MR RAMPTON:  Of 1991 Hitler's War, my Lord.  I was just
going
        to compare the two versions.  Then at the bottom,
still on
        1977, Mr Irving, 462, at the bottom of the page, you
have
        got a parenthesis which you have already spotted, in
        brackets, "Hitler's notes do not indicate that he

.          P-77



        mentioned to Hitler the alternative fate of the
others".
        You and I can disagree about that, but my question is
        this, or first question is this.  What did you mean by
        "the alternative fate of the others"?
   A.   We do not know because he did not mention it.
   Q.   I see.
   A.   That is not a weasel answer.  I am just saying that
there
        was an alternative fate clearly adumbrated, but we are
not
        told what it was, whether it was being sent for slave
        labour or sent to the gas chambers or what.
   Q.   Notwithstanding that at this date you still believed
in
        the mass murder of the Jews, including a lot of French
        Jews?
   A.   I am being very cautious the way I write.  This was a
very
        sensitive subject, as you yourself said.  I am
extremely
        cautions the way I proceed phase by phase when I write
        these narratives.
   Q.   When we have got to 1991 on page 511, by which time,
on
        your own admission, you have become a hard core
        disbeliever so far as the Holocaust is concerned, that
        little parenthesis has gone, has it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Why?
   A.   Very simple.  First of all, the 1991 edition is an
        abridged edition.  I do not know if you have ever
abridged
        a book, but you go through it cutting out lines which
are

.          P-78



        superfluous.  My editor, Tom Congden, as I mentioned
on a
        previous day, taught me the basic or retaught me the
basic
        principles of bookwriting.  One of them is, don't say
what
        somebody didn't do; say what they did do.  This is a
        classic example of me saying what somebody did not do
        which is totally superfluous to our knowledge.
   Q.   No, no, Mr Irving.
   A.   So I cut out the reference to what somebody did not
do.  A
        classic example of what somebody did not do being cut
out
        because the book has to be shortened by one-third.
   Q.   The truth of the matter, Mr Irving -- it must be
really
        pretty obvious -- is this, is it not?  1977, you still
        believe in the Holocaust.  I use that as shorthand
because
        I do not like to use a whole lot of words where two
will
        do.
   A.   Well, the factories of death.
   Q.   In 1977 you believed in the factories of death.  That
is
        four words, I think?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   In 1991 you do not.  You have removed the parenthesis
        because you fearful that your readers might think that
you
        meant, as indeed you did in that parenthesis, that the
        fate of the other Jews, the alternative fate of the
other
        Jews, was going to be death?
   A.   You have no basis for making that suggestion other
than
        the purposes of this action which is you are looking,

.          P-79



        I think, I will not say desperately, but you are
looking
        for everything you can seize upon ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Anyway, the answer is no.
   MR RAMPTON:  The answer is no.
   A.   The equally and far more plausible suggestion is that
we
        are cutting out what we possibly can out of the book
to
        trim it down to make room for fresh material.
   MR RAMPTON:  Mr Irving, it will not be for either you or I
to
        say whether your answers are plausible at the end of
this
        case.
   A.   Well, I venture to suggest that this is the least
perverse
        explanation.  You are trying find room to put in an
extra
        200 pages of material into a book that we were already
        tying to shorten.  So if we put in a paragraph here, a
        parenthesis, which says something did not happen, then
        that is an obvious candidate for the chop.
                  There are very many sentences cut out on
every
        page if you compare the pages.  I would also add the
fact
        that much of the editing was not done by me; it was
done
        by the American publishers or by an assistant who I
hired
        specifically for the job.
   Q.   I am sorry.  I have been given something, Mr Irving.
I am
        not being discourteous.  I am trying to read it very
        quickly to find out if I need to ask anything about
it.
        I think not.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Rampton, can I just ask you this,

.          P-80



         "Abschaffen", you say, is relevant to Hitler's
        knowledge?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  And is also an example of distortion?
   MR RAMPTON:  Oh, yes, it is three things.  It is relevance,
not
        just of Hitler's knowledge, but probably of a Hitler,
some
        kind of a, one of these utterances -- well, it is more
        than that.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I understand how you put it.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is an instruction.  That is No. 1.  2, it
is
        evidence of a developing distortion.  The distortion
is
        already there in 1977 with the word "remove".  We can
see
        that, in fact, from the footnote which uses "dispose"
and
        the parenthesis.  In 1991, in the eighth line down in
the
        middle paragraph the word "remove" has been "extract"
and
        the parenthesis has gone.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, thank you.
   A.   To which my response is, of course, that I have given no
        fewer than three different translations for the word
         "Abschaffen" in the one volume so the reader can pick his
        own way, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  My Lord, for the moment, until I see Mr Irving's
        other documents on Monday, that is as far as I need take
        that question today.

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