Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day006.02
Last-Modified: 2000/08/02

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Let's not get bogged down. What is being put

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        to you is that, where you have vernichtung in combination
        with a reference to vermin, there can be no two ways about
        it.  What is being talked about is extermination.  Do you
        not agree with that?
   A.   There is more than one way to skin a cat and I am not
        going to go beyond what the actual document says, my
        Lord.  For example -- it could equally well be destroyed
        as vermin by being locked up for life.  I am just talking
        about theoretical possibilities, but I agree that there is
        a sinister connotation on this document.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You do agree?
   A.   Yes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Professor Browning goes on ----.
   A.  He has also talked about the fact that the Jewish men have
        been shot and disposed of, which is many of what he calls
        the vermin.  This does not really take it much further.
   Q.   We are coming to the female and the infant vermin in a
        moment.  What did Wurm mean by special measures for the
        destruction of Jews in the east, extermination,
        vernichtung, whatever?
   A.   I am not the writer of this letter, Mr Rampton, so I do
        not know what he is talking about.
   Q.   No.  Well, we will leave that, shall we?  I do not believe
        there can be any doubt about what extermination of vermin
        actually means.
   Q.  "On October 25, 1941, Rademacher's counterpart in the Reich

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        Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, Eberhard
        Wetzel ...".  Is that a correct description of Herr Wetzel's position?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Was he of equal rank with Rademacher?
   A.   Yes.  He survived the war and he died in his bed at a
ripe
        old age without having suffered any penalty.  I
remember
        corresponding with him some time ago.
   Q.  "... Met first with Viktor Brack of the Fuhrer
        Chancellery..." Can I pause there to ask you to
explain
        what the Fuhrer Chancellery actually was, please?
   A.   It is a total misnomer really to call it the Fuhrer
        Chancellery.  It was an office set up in another
building
        many hundreds yards away from Hitler's Chancellery.
It
        was a body which was primarily concerned with dealing
with
        the public, and in that way it became involved with
        dealing with applications for clemency, and in that
way it
        became involved in the euthanasia programme because
        doctors who were required to take part in the
euthanasia
        programme had to apply, so to speak, to the head of
state
        in advance for clemency for the actions they proposed
to
        take.  In that way it became involved in the mass
killing
        operations.  Viktor Brack, I believe, was No. 2 in the
        Fuhrer Chancellery under Philip Buhler.
   Q.   Can you tell me, I think Viktor Brack was, at any
rate,
        one Dr Brack, sometimes German doctors are Dr Dr, but
he

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        is Dr Brack, is he not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Do you know what his doctorate was in?
   A.   No.  Probably in law.  Most of the gangsters were
        lawyers.  Most of the concentration camp commandants
were
        lawyers.
   Q.   As we shall see shortly.  Dr Brack had a chemist
called
        Kalmeier?
   A.   Dr Kalmeier, yes.
   Q.   I should ask you a further question.  Is it your
position
        then that, despite the fact that it is called the
Fuhrer
        Chancellery, there is not only a hundred yards, but a
        great deal more metaphorically speaking of distance
        between what goes on in that Chancellery and the
Fuhrer
        himself?
   A.   I have read a great deal in the files of that
department,
        and I cannot remember having seen any correspondence
        between that department and Hitler himself.
   Q.   What was the Fuhrer's office called?
   A.   The Fuhrer's office?
   Q.   Yes.  Did he have actual office of his own?
   A.   The Reichskanzlei would be the closest body to him
which
        was under Dr Hans Lammas who we will meet later on
this
        morning probably.  He was head of the Reichskanzlei,
the
        Reich Chancellery as Reich chancellor.  As head of the
        Wehrmacht he would be the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht,

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        which was his military office, so to speak.
   Q.  "... of the Fuhrer Chancellery (where he was involved
with
        the so-called euthanasia program for the killing of
        mentally-and physically handicapped patients in German
        hospitals and asylums)..." Pause there a moment.  This
is
        not an important point but we will mention it, if we
may,
        in passing.  That is the so-called T 4 programme, is
it
        not, from No. 4 Theresien Strasse?
   A.   No, Tiergarten Strasse.
   Q.   I beg your pardon.  I muddled up two words.
   A.   The T 4, and they developed the expertise for killing,
the
        gas trucks and so on.
   Q.   That programme did have Adolf Hitler's authority, did
it
        not?
   A.   The euthanasia program was authorized by Hitler in the
        middle of September 1939.  Around about August 1940,
when
        it began to gather momentum voices in the public
became
        agitated about it and retrospectively Hitler signed a
        decree on September 1st 1939 authorizing it, in other
        words giving it the force of law.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Authorizing the use of gas trucks to
effect
        the euthanasia?
   A.   No, my Lord, authorizing the euthanasia programme.
        Strictly speaking, he specified which doctors were
allowed
        to carry it out or to make the decisions of life and
death
        over the victims of the euthanasia programme. He did
not

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        talk about the methods.
   Q.   He did not talk about methods at all?
   A.   Not in this decree.  It is a five or six line decree.
   Q.   Nor anywhere else?
   A.   No.  It is a very interesting document because it is
        obviously a signed death warrant for thousands of
people
        which Adolf Hitler has himself signed.  It is that
kind of
        order which does sometimes exist.
   MR RAMPTON:  I do not know, they probably used a variety of
        methods to begin with, did they not?
   A.   To do what?
   Q.   A variety of methods to begin with, the euthanasia
people?
   A.   I understand so.  I think the order actually spoke of
        humane means, and you can interpret the word "humane"
how
        you want if you are a Nazi, I suppose.
   Q.   One of the means used, I do not know whether it was
the
        most frequently used, was carbon monoxide gas from
        bottles, was it not?
   A.   I believe that is correct, yes.  I think this was the
        method.  There was a discussion at Hitler's table
about
        the most humane ways of doing it.  I discussed this
with
        the widow of Dr Conte, who was the original chief
doctor,
        and she remembered being at her home of the telephone
call
        from Hitler to her husband in September 1939.  Her
        husband, immediately after the phone conversation,
went to
        a dictionary to look up to see what the word
"euthanasia"

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        meant.  After that, they had the discussions at
Hitler's
        chancellery about the most humane ways of putting
these
        people to sleep, if you can put it like that.
   Q.   Including by the use of carbon monoxide gas?
   A.   This was one of the methods discussed on that occasion
and
        I believe they did use it, yes.
   Q.   It is said by Professor Browning that Wetzel met also
        Adolf Eichmann, Heydrich's special adviser on Jewish
        policy.  Two things.  Is there anything in that short
        account of whom Wetzel met on 25th October 1941, which
is
        a matter of history you disagree with?  It is not a
matter
        of history I disagree with in broad terms, but the
        documentary basis is a bit suspect.  I know the
documents
        that Browning is referring to and some of them are in
        pencil, some of them had gaps in, I think it was N
0365 or
        something like that is the Nuremberg document number.
        They go through various drafts.
   Q.   The second question is this.  Is it right that Adolf
        Eichmann was Heydrich's special adviser on Jewish
policy?
   A.   He was the head of the Jewish desk of the amtfuhrer
which
        was the section 4 of the Riesigerhauptamt.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I am not sure whether this is really
covered
        by Mr Rampton's question, but do you accept that Brack
of
        the kanzlei did declare himself ready to aid in the
        construction of gassing apparatus?
   A.   Yes, I think so, my Lord.  I think we can very rapidly

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        slice through this if I accept most of the contentions
        that are made in these paragraphs.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is helpful.
   MR RAMPTON:  In that case I need not ask you to look at the
        Wetzel letter to Lohse, who is the Reichs commissar
for
        the Ostland.  You may, if you wish.  It is in H3 (ii)
at
        footnote 83.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Do we need to?
   MR RAMPTON:  No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Broadly speaking, the narrative is
accepted?
   A.   Yes.  I think that would probably just dot Is and
cross
        Ts.
   MR RAMPTON:   I will tell you this.  It is actually marked
        Geheim, which is what was second security
classification.
   A.   Could you tell me again what the reference number for
the
        document is.
   Q.   I think you ought to look at it.  I am sorry about
this,
        my Lord, but I feel uncomfortable being the only one
with
        the document open in front of me. It is H3 (ii),
footnote
        83.
   A.   I have it.
   Q.   This is, I think, a Nuremberg document, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   You can tell that from the top?
   A.   Right.  With this document, of course, now I can see
the
        document you are referring to, I do have a problem
fitting

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        it into the actual framework you are trying to ascribe
it
        to.  It refers to unterkunfte and vergasungsapparate.
It
        is referring to Riga and by implication it also brings
in
        Dr Tesch, who was the head of the company that
        manufactured or rather had the sole distribution
rights on
        Zyklon B east of the river Elb, and I am quite
familiar
        with the Tesch case because I did take the trouble,
before
        this action began, to read through the entire
transcripts
        of the war crimes trial against the Tesch company.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  If I am supposed to follow that, I am
afraid
        I am simply not following a word of it.  It is no
        criticism of you, Mr Irving.
   A.   It is just that I have extraneous knowledge, my Lord,
        about what was going on at Riga with Tesch, who had
been
        sent out with his experts to set up fumigation
facilities
        as a central fumigation plant for the huge masses of
        clothing, army clothing, military clothing, refugee
        clothing -- and vergasungsapparate and unterkunfte,
and we
        have one intercept which goes to this and which,
purely by
        coincidence, I actually handed to Mr Rampton this
morning,
        the German intercept, which actually deals with the
        provision of the Zyklon to Tesch for this purpose.
   MR RAMPTON:   This is merely a reference to using Dr
Brack's
        machinery to destroy, literally speaking, vermin.  Is
that
        right?
   A.   Perhaps we had better go through the document in
detail.

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   Q.   I think you had better look at the first complete
        paragraph on the second page, the first sentence,
before
        you commit yourself to that, Mr Irving.
   A.   That is quite plainly a reference to liquidating the
Jews,
        the second paragraph, yes.
   Q.   Using Dr Brack's machinery means?
   A.   Well, either machinery or methods.
   Q.   Yes, methods, Dr Brack's gassing apparatus.  It is a
        reference to exterminating by means of gas those Jews
who
        could not work, is it not?
   A.   I am not going to be specific about means.  All they are
        saying here is that they are going to be using Brack's
        means or methods, which could be any means.  They used
        various different means to dispose of the euthanasia
        victims.
   Q.   Could you please read us in translation that first
        sentence of the first complete paragraph on page 2,
        Mr Irving?
   A.   In German or in English?
   Q.   No, in English.
   A.   According to the state of affairs, we have no misgivings
        if those Jews who are not capable of working are disposed
        of using Brack's methods.  Yes.

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