Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.22
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   Q.   Let us see how it goes on:
                  "Why should I look at a Jew with other eyes
        than at a Russian prisoner of war?  Many are dying in the
        prison camps because we have been driven into this
        situation by the Jews.  But what can I do about that?  Why
        then did the Jews instigate the war?"
                  The whole undercurrent Hitler's, I hesitate to
        call it thinking, but his ideology seems to have been that
        somehow the Jews were responsible for having started the
        war?
   A.   I would look at the sentence before where he says: "Why
        should I look at the Jews differently than from a Russian
        prisoner of war?  Many are dying", he says, many of the
        Russians are dying.  I think you omitted the emphasis that
        that sentence needed.
   Q.   I do not know.  I shall get caput, collapses, dies, it
        does not matter whether you kill them or whether they die,
        it does not matter, does, it, so long as they are all got
        rid of?
                  This is Professor Evans:  "Hitler came back
to

.          P-198



        his prophecy of the extermination of the Jews is a
        widely-transmitted speech in the Reichstag on 30th
January
        1942", no doubt it was taken to be an anniversary of
the
        speech on the ----
   A.   This is the old gramophone record.  He keeps playing
it.
   Q.   But on the same date two or three years later?
   A.   He does it on various dates, 8th November 1942.
   Q.   "Irving merely comments that in his speech Hitler
reminded
        his audience of his prophetic warning to the world's
Jews
        in 1939."  That is page 464 of Hitler's War 1991 which
        I think, well, is it, it does not seem to be on my
page
        464, but never mind.  It might be a different edition
        I suspect.
   A.   You are looking at the eye for an eye and the tooth
for a
        tooth?
   Q.   I have that.  Where is that in Hitler's War?
   A.   It is not in it.
   Q.   We will read it then: "In fact Hitler was much more
        explicit.  I have already pronounced in the Reichstag
tag
        on 1st September 1939, and I guard myself against
        premature prophecies, that this war will not end as
the
        Jews imagine, namely that the European Aryan peoples
will
        be exterminated."  The word is?
   A.   "Ausgerottet".
   Q.   I cannot find it in the German text?
   A.   Line three of the footnote.

.          P-199



   Q.   Yes.  How would you render that?
   A.   Render what?
   Q.   "Ausgerottet" in that context?
   A.   He is clearly not saying that it is going lead to the
        destruction or killing of all the European Aryan
peoples.
        That is a clear indication that "ausrottung" is a very
        elastic word.  I did not think we wanted to have the
        argument about "ausrottung" today.
   Q.   "Zondern das Ergebnis dieses Krieges die Vernichtung
des
        Judentums sein wird", but that the result of this war
will
        be the ----
   A.   Destruction.
   Q.   --- annihilation, destruction, extermination, call it
what
        you like, of Jewry.  "For the first time the truly old
        Jewish law being applied this time", "Aug um Aug, Zahn
um
        Zahn", yes?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Yes?
   A.   Yes, a rebel-rousing speech to the German Parliament.
   Q.   A rebel-rousing speech.  What is he rousing the rebels
to
        do or approve of, do you think?
   A.   I have no idea, but when people make speeches to
        Parliament they tend to shoot their mouth off and they
say
        what the people listening want to hear.  Quoting the
Old
        Testament, two anti-Semitics is quite effective.
   Q.   Now 25th February.

.          P-200



   A.   Your criticism is, of course, that I did not quote
that
        particular sentence in my book.
   Q.   It is my consistent criticism that whereas anything
that
        puts Hitler in the least danger of being, what shall
we
        say, done for the murder of the Jews, to put it
crudely,
        you take it out or you leave it out.
   A.   I do not agree.  I put in the meat of that which is
that
        once again he repeated his prophetic warning to the
Jews
        that if they started a war they would not survive it,
        which is the crude way of putting that prophecy of
his,
        and that there is no need to embellish it really with
this
        kind of anti-Semitic jibe that he made in Parliament.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which bit did you not include?
   A.   The bit about the eye for the eye last, the sentence
my
        Lord.
   Q.   The rest I think you did include?
   A.   The rest I did include, and one has to remember the
        constraints that are on an author not to overwrite,
not to
        write a book that is twice as long as the publishers
are
        going to accept.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Speaking for myself I would have thought
you
        did get the guts of it, if that is all you left out.
   A.   I appreciate the point Mr Rampton makes.
   MR RAMPTON:  Page 415, I have not run a check to see
whether we
        find all these passages in your books or not at the
        moment, but on a slightly different tack it is a
question

.          P-201



        of whether the table talk is really so, what shall we
say,
        unmisstated as you put it, as you suggest.
                  "At Hitler's table talk on 22nd February
1942,
        the following statement was recorded:  It is one of
the
        greatest revolutions there has ever been in the world.
        The Jew will be identified!  The same fight that
Pasteur
        and Koch had to fight must be led by us today.
        Innumerable sicknesses have their origin in one
bacillus:
        the Jew.  Japan would also have got them", the
bacilli, I
        think, "if it had remained open any longer to the Jew.
We
        will get well when we eliminate the Jew", and the word
he
        uses, is reported as having used, is "eliminieren"?
   A.   "Eliminieren", yes.
   Q.   That is pretty blunt, is it not?
   A.   Yes, but there is no suggestion that I have not
repeatedly
        and on every occasion stated when Hitler referred to
the
        Jews as "bascilli" that need to be eliminated.  Of
course,
        I did.
   Q.   What does antibiotic medicine do to bascilli?
   A.   Good Lord!  You are not asking me as a medical expert,
        surely?
   Q.   Come on, Mr Irving, you are older than I am.  I do not
say
        you remember Pasteur and Koch, but, for heaven's sake,
we
        all know what antibiotics do, they kill germs?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   That is what Pasteur discovered, was it not?

.          P-202



   A.   He has not actually talked about antibiotics in here,
has
        he?  I do not want to start nit-picking which is the
        opposite of what you are doing.
   Q.   The meaning of this is kill the germs, the Jewish
germs,
        is it not?
   A.   Eliminating them.
   Q.   How do you get rid of germs except by killing?
   A.   I have no idea.  You can wash your hands in soap and
        water.  There are various different ways of getting
rid of
        germs.  That is why he has used word "eliminate".
   Q.   That is right, you send them to Madagascar or Russia
in a
        plastic bag.
   A.   That is the July 1942 entry which you did not want to
have
        read out.
   Q.   I am coming to that.  I do not use the same kind of
        ellipses, Mr Irving, as I suggest you do.
   A.   I am aware of the fact that we are coming up to the
end of
        the afternoon and you have left the public without
some of
        the best items which are in my favour, if they are
going
        to be mentioned at all.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I do not think we can co-ordinate the
        evidence.  It is a nice idea!  Let us have one more,
shall
        we?
   MR RAMPTON:  We are going to have the next one on 24th
        February.
   A.   Can we not have July 1942?

.          P-203



   Q.   We will get to it tomorrow and you can have your
audience,
        but you cannot be my stage manager, I am afraid,
        Mr Irving.
                  On 24th February 1942 a statement by Hitler
was
        announced to NSDAP party members in Munich which again
        made a reference to his prophecy."
                  Before I read it, Mr Irving, I want to know
        whether you say this is something which was cooked up
by
        party officials without reference to Hitler?
   A.   I am not going to express an opinion on that.  It is
taken
        out of Max Demarus' collection of press clippings,
        effectively.  So it is a published statement,
published in
        the German press.  So it actually cannot have a very
        sinister connotation, surely.
   Q.   I do not know.
   A.   I thought this was top secret what was going on.
   Q.   I do not know if you read it.
                  "Today the idea of our National Socialist,
and
        that of the fascist revolution, have conquered great
and
        powerful states, and my prophecy will find its
fulfilment,
        that through this war Aryan humankind will not be
        annihilated, but the Jew will be", ausgerottet werden
        wird, will be ausgerottet?
   A.   Yes, he has used the fifth or sixth meaning of the
word
        "ausgerottet" rather than the primary meaning.
   Q.   Well, we might go back to the Langscheite overnight or

.          P-204



        some greater authority, I do not know.
   A.   I have a whole shelf of dictionaries.
   Q.   I am not going to do it now.
                  "Whatever the struggle may bring with it or
        however long it may last, this will be its final
result,
        and only then with the removal of these parasites with
a
        long period of understanding between nations, and with
it
        true peace, come upon the suffering."
                  Again, it is similar to the reference to the
        "bacillus".  Of course in one sense it is
metaphorical.
   A.   It does not really help us, does it, actually, getting
rid
        of the Jews?
   Q.   If you talk about ridding a house of its parasites ---
-
   A.   "Beseitigung", getting rid of, yes.
   Q.   Yes, or exterminating them ----
   A.   I am thinking of somebody with a broom, like, "get out
of
        here, "get out of here".
   Q.   Parasites, no, I think not, Mr Irving.  What I am
        suggesting is that Hitler did not need at his table
talk
        or in his public occasions to talk about gas chambers
or
        shootings, indeed he would not have done, but he is
        talking in terms of genocide, is he not?
   A.   So he is announcing it in the press, "We are going to
be
        carrying out genocide"?  This is a press clipping.
   Q.   This is an announcement to party members?
   A.   It is in the press, the VB in the footnote that has
been

.          P-205



        printed in the press.  It is a public statement, the
party
        policy.
   Q.   It portrays a state of mind if you put these things
        together, does it not?
   A.   Yes, but, on the other hand, I do emphasise this is a
        public statement, so he is hardly going to out saying,
        "yes, we are going to be liquidating all the Jews".
   Q.   If we had but this one public statement to say that
Hitler
        intended physical annihilation of the Jews,
"biologische
        vernichtung" but this one document, I would not be
        suggesting ----
   A.   Excuse me, he does not say "biologische vernichtung"
in
        this document.
   Q.   Wait, Mr Irving.  Sometimes you do not listen.
   A.   That is manipulation again.
   Q.   No, Mr Irving, you do not listen.  I said if we had
this
        document and this document alone to convict Hitler of
an
        intention to achieve a biologische vernichtung, it
would
        not be very good evidence.  Do you see?  I do not take
        documents one by one.  I take the cumulative effect.
   A.   This is part of your chain of documents.
   Q.   If you like, Mr Irving, yes.
   A.   This chain against chain.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Is that a convenient moment?  You have
        finished with that.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, my Lord.  I am going to come on to one or
two

.          P-206



        more of these table talks.  As I promised I would,
        tomorrow morning.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  At some stage will you be looking, if
not,
        well, so be it, at the very early statements which are
        pretty much the same.
   MR RAMPTON:  They are very much the same.  They are all
        collected in the first part of Longerich.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That may be sufficient.
   MR RAMPTON:  That may be sufficient.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Mr Irving may want to comment on whether
he
        takes those into account when he is evaluating
Hitler's
        knowledge.
   MR RAMPTON:  If I may say so, that is very fair.  Perhaps I
        ought to do that ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Not this evening.
   A.   I shall certainly be taking it into account in
        cross-examination of Longerich, which is probably the
        proper time to deal with them.
   < (The witness withdrew).
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  10.30 tomorrow.
        (The court adjourned until the following day)

.          P-207

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