Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day004.15
Last-Modified: 2000/08/01

   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Anyway we have got the ----
   A.   Well, Mr Rampton keeps on coming back to it like a dog
        that keeps on digging up an old bone.
   Q.   --- question and the answer.
        Mr Irving, to learn how to read Himmler's handwriting last
        night or whenever it was, Friday maybe, which you already
        knew.  Now I want to turn aside or I want to go into the
        future, rather.  Can you have your Hitler's War book of
        1991, please?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which part?
   MR RAMPTON:  Part 2, my Lord.  Please turn to page 464.  My
        Lord, I had better read from the beginning of where the
        text comes out of quotation.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Right.
   MR RAMPTON:  "Given his table company", that is Hitler's table
        company, "Himmler, Lammas and Colonel Hanzeitzer on this
        occasion, this is surely a significant private discourse
        by the Fuhrer"?
   A.   Would it not be more to point to read the paragraph?
   Q.   I am not really going to ask you about that, but I will if
        you want me to?
   A.   Please do.

.          P-133



   Q.   On January 25th, we are in 1942, are we not?  It starts at
        the bottom of 463, my Lord.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Are you going to be discussing the Roman Jews
        at this point?
   MR RAMPTON:  No.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  I really do not think, Mr Irving, it is going
        to be relevant.  We will obviously read anything that you
        think is relevant but I do not think ----
   A.   Well, it is just a passage that is incompatible with the
        notion that Adolf Hitler was simultaneously giving orders
        for the liquidation of Jews.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  All right, well, let us have it.  I was
        trying to save time.
   MR RAMPTON:  We are going to have to come back to it.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Of course.
   MR RAMPTON:  Because again it is, what shall we say, to put it
        neutrally at the moment, it is another crass error
        by Mr Irving ----
   A.   Another.
   Q.   --- so we say.  "Hitler reflected out loud: 'If I extract
        the Jews today, our citizens get uneasy, what is happening
        to him then, but did these same people care one hoot what
        happened to the Germans", in italics, "who had to
        emigrate.  We've got to get it over fast.  It is no better
        to pull out a tooth a bit at a time over three months.
        Once it is out, the agony is over.   The Jews have got to

.          P-134



        get out of Europe, otherwise we'll never reach a European
        consensus.  He is the worst troublemaker everywhere and
        really aren't I, in fact, terrifically humane?  During the
         ... ceremony in Rome the Jews were maltreated.  Up to
        1830 they hounded eight Jews through the city on asses
        every year.  All I say is he has got to get out.  If he
        drops ... in the process, I can't help it.  I do see one
        thing, however, their total elimination, absolute
        ausrotung, if they won't leave willingly.
                  "Given his table company, Himmler, Lammas and
        Colonel Hanzeitzer on this occasion, this is surely a
        significant private discourse by the Fuhrer.  On January
        27th, he repeated the same arguments over dinner to a
        different audience, 'The Jews have got to get out of
        Europe.  The best thing would be for them to go to Russia.
        I have no sympathy with the Jews'
                  "Three days later speaking in the Berlin Sport
        Palaste he reminded his audience of his prophetic warning
        to the world's Jews in 1939.
                   "Early in March 1942, Heydrich held a second
        interministerial conference to examine the awkward problem
        posed by half and quarter Jews.  If allowed to remain,
        they might, perhaps, be sterilised.  The top level
        opinion, i.e. Hitler, is quoted to the effect that they
        must draw a sharp distinction between Jews and non- Jews as
        it would not be acceptable for a mini race of semi Jews to

.          P-135



        be perpetuated in law.  This classification process would
        call for a colossal administrative effort, so the idea was
        shelved.  A subsequent memorandum in Reichjustice ministry
        file cited this highly significant statement by Hans
        Lammas headed 'The Reich Chancellory', 'The Fuhrer has
        repeatedly stated that he wants ... (reading to the words)
         ... After the war they might be allocated a remote
        territory like Madagascar as a national home."
                  Much of that, Mr Irving, we are going to come
        back to later on.  This is the bit.  I read that by way of
        chronological introduction:
                  "Dr Goebbels, agitating from Berlin, clearly
        hoped for a more speedy and ruthless solution although he
        held his tongue when meeting his Fuhrer.  On March 19th he
        quoted in his diary only this remark by Hitler:  'The Jews
        must get out of Europe.  If need be, we must resort to the
        most brutal methods'.  That Goebbels privately knew more
        is plain from his diary entry on 27th.  'Beginning with
        Lublin', he recorded, 'The Jews are being pushed out
        eastwards from the General Government.  A barbaric and
        indescribable method is being employed here and there is
        not much left of the Jews themselves.  By and large, you
        can probably conclude that 60 per cent of them have to be
        liquidated while only 40 per cent can be put to work."
                   "Dr Goebbels recorded further that ...  (reading
        to the words) ... And the cycle started over again.  'The

.          P-136



        Jews have nothing to laugh about now' commented Goebbels,
        but he evidently, never discussed these realities with
        Hitler.  Thus, this two-faced minister dictated after a
        further visit to Hitler on April 26th: 'I have once again
        talked over the Jewish question with the Fuhrer.  His
        position on this problem is merciless.  He wants to force
        the Jews right out of Europe.  At this moment Himmler is
        handing the major transfer of Jews from the German cities
        into the eastern gettoes."
                  Now, you cited two Goebbels' entries there in
        part, and you make it clear that it is only in part.  The
        first question, for the entry of 27th March 1942, had you
        read the whole of the entry?
   A.   I did, and I read it not only in the original paper
        diaries in the Hoover Library in California where that
        particular page is now kept, the original, I also read
it
        on microfilm in the American national archive's
version
        that was microfilmed in 1947 because, obviously, this
was
        a very contentious entry and a lot of right wing
radicals
        tried to make out that this was a fake entry in some
way,
        and that the CIA or the OSS or someone had dumped it,
had
        inserted it into the Goebbels' diaries.  When I went
to
        Moscow, that was one of the first plates I looked for,
        just to complete the circle of evidence that it was a
        genuine entry.  So I read it many times.
   Q.   You have, so you have read the whole of that entry?

.          P-137



   A.   Yes, indeed.
   Q.   Well, then could I ask that Mr Irving be given ----
   A.   Of course there is much more to than that.
   Q.   Yes.  Can I ask Mr Irving be given Professor Evans'
        report, please?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  You may already have it.  I think it is
        coming up from behind.
   MR RAMPTON:  What about the entry of 26th April?
   A.   You want me to find a particular page in the report
first.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  No, I think Mr Rampton wants to know
whether
        you have read it?
   A.   Yes, of course.  I read that one on microfilm because
        I have the entire diaries that were then available on
        microfilm since 1970 about, my Lord.
   MR RAMPTON:  I am going to ask you if you will to look at
the
        translation (and the German is set out there too) at
page
        400 of Professor Evans' report?
   A.   Are we going to challenge my translation or just the
        content?
   Q.   No, do not leap ahead, Mr Irving.
   A.   I need to know what I am looking at.
   Q.   You fall at the fences if you do that.  Could you just
        read to yourself, either way round, it matters not to
me,
        first of all or second of all, the English and the
German
        to yourself.  I want you to say whether you think the
        translation is a fair one.

.          P-138



   A.   In other words, the translation?
   Q.   I am sure you know the German very well, but I would
like
        you to see whether you agree or not that Professor
Evans'
        translation is a fair one, then we can all get on with
the
        words.
   A.   Well, let us assume that it is a fair translation.  If
I
         ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Yes, that may save time in the end,
        I suspect, because you are going to come to particular
        passages.
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, I do not want to ask questions about a
        passage in English which the witness may dispute.
That is
        all.  Your quotation if you still have it open on page
        464  ----
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   --- stops, I think, well, as a direct quote it stops,
        first of all, in the penultimate line of page 464 as a
        direct quotation?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Then you go on to report the next sentence in
Goebbels'
        text?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Carefully and unobtrusively you say Professor Evans
that
        does not work too conspicuously?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   I do not think you have got any of the rest of it?

.          P-139



   A.   It is pure Goebbels' waffle, yes.
   Q.   What?
   A.   If you have the read Goebbels' diaries, you know he
        waffles endlessly.  He is dictating to a diligent
        manservant who takes down everything he dictates.  He
        waffles.  If he was writing this in handwriting, he
would
        have done it in half the length.  It is the old
Goebbels'
        gramophone record that he is putting on again.
   Q.   There is a reference, if you can go back, please, to
        Professor Evans' version, again to the Reichstag
prophecy,
        is there not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   And he says "that prophecy is beginning to realize
itself
        in the most terrible manner"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "And must not allow any sentimentalities to rule in
these
        matters.  If we did not defend ourselves against them,
the
        Jews would annihilate us.  It is a struggle for life
and
        death between the areas and race and the Jewish
        bacillus"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Now, "the Jewish bascillus" was not Goebbels' ugly
concept
        but Hitler's, was it not?
   A.   That is correct.  Hitler repeatedly, particularly in
1941
        onwards, started talking about the Jewish bacillus.
   Q.   He did indeed.

.          P-140



   A.   Which I quoted in my book, of course.
   Q.   He talked about eliminating the Jewish bacillus on a
        number of occasions?
   A.   Yes, or "combating" the bacillus rather than
"eliminating"
        it.
   Q.   What?  Sometimes he uses the word "eliminierum" which
I
        suppose means "eliminate".  "No other government and
no
        other regime could muster the strength for a general
        solution of the question.  Here too the Fuhrer is the
        persistent and the word is "Vorkampfer"?
   A.   "Pioneer", yes.
   Q.   Pioneer?
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  That is "protagonist" really, is it not?
   A.   Even better.
   MR RAMPTON:  "Protagonist"?
   A.   And it would be an accurate, a deliberate, 100 per
cent --
        excellent.
   Q.   And "Wortfuhrer", is that a spokesman?
   A.   "Champion".
   Q.   A "champion", yes, stronger than "spokesman" of a
radical
        solution of the question -- sorry, "of a radical
solution
        which is demanded by the way things are and thus
appears
        to be unavoidable".  You never in this book, or the
        previous edition of this book, make any reference to
that
        statement by Goebbels about Hitler's position in this
        general solution, do you?

.          P-141



   A.   This is Goebbels reporting Hitler's position.
   Q.   It is indeed.
   A.   Yes, but does it really advance our sum knowledge of what
        Hitler's position was?
   Q.   Indeed it does, indeed it does, Mr Irving.  It at least,
        one might put it like this, might lead one to be a bit
        cautious, might it not, about saying that Goebbels kept
        the ghastly truth from his leader, Adolf Hitler?
   A.   Well, I have a reason for saying that.

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